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John MacArthur voting for Trump

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Calminian

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Or as he put it,

"I am going to vote against Hillary Clinton by punching the hole next to Donald Trump’s name. I'm not voting for Trump, I am voting against Clinton, for she will do evil.”

A summit was held at the Master's University recently. Below is the corresponding article on their reasoning for urging a Trump vote.

It's not an endorsement of Trump, per se, in fact I thought the critique of Trump as way over the top, but they do admit that Trump is strong on the issues evangelicals care the most about.
  1. Pro Capitalism and Nationalism
  2. Smart Border Policy
  3. Pro Constitutionalism
  4. Anti Abortion
  5. Pro Religious Freedom
This to me is the sane version of Trump concern. I don't share it but it's at lease sane. They acknowledge they don't like him, but at the same time, acknowledge that a Hillary presidency and her Supreme Court will be devastating to the Nation and the Church. MacArthur and his panelists don't go off the deep end like John Piper and Max Lucado. They actually understand the political issues and the ramification of electing Hillary.

Here is the article:

Vote the Issues, Not the Individual

Almost every American citizen has commented on the current campaign for presidency, regarding it the most debased one in US history. Christians have been at a complete loss as to what to do and how to vote.

Likening the major party candidates to Herod and Jezebel, many ask: how can I choose the lesser of two evils? Can I sincerely put my support, my vote, behind a candidate as corrupt and foolish as Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton? Others have thought about not voting at all or merely putting their ballot in for a third party representative to appease their conscience; feeling that if they throw their support behind either, they would not be able to justify their reasoning.

On November 2nd The Master’s University held the first in a series of Summits, this one specifically addressing the 2016 Presidential Election and Current Events. The four panelists: Soeren Kern, John MacArthur, John Stead and Gregg Frazer, adeptly addressed a captive audience of over one-thousand two hundred attendees on the issues facing our nation and concerns surrounding this year's elections. The main question on everyone’s mind: Whom do we vote for?

However, rather than simply stating the answer, the panelists logically went through what one should look for in a candidate based upon biblical principles, trusting each person to reason for themselves and draw their own conclusions.

MacArthur stated the purpose of the government based upon Romans 13, “Government is designed by God for the purpose of restraining evil and providing safety for people who do good” and each discussion: foreign policy, economics, religious liberty, etc. came under that umbrella. What are the consequences of each party’s agenda?

Stead instructed it's not the candidate we need to control, “it's the issues. How would you treat each of these things in relation to yourself, your family, and your Christian testimony?”
    1. Will you vote to support Socialism when that negates God’s arrangement for man to work and earn by the sweat of his brow (Gen 3:19, 1 Tim 5:8)?
    2. Will you vote to disband all national borders when God is the one who structured and ordained that society would have boundaries (Gen 11)?
    3. Would you vote to negate the Constitution, the document this nation was founded upon and the law God allowed this country to use as a means of restraining evil (Romans 13)?
    4. Would you choose to vote for “supporting the least of these” when that means the slaughtering of the innocent (Prov. 1:17, Jer. 32)?
    5. Would you willingly surrender your ability to peacefully fulfill the Great Commission in this country by voting for “freedom of worship” rather than “freedom of religion” (Matt 28: 16-20)?
One candidate’s platform answers yes to each of these questions and the other's --- no. With the Electoral College, unless a miracle were to occur, one's only choice is between Clinton and Trump. Each panelist acknowledged that neither is optimal, but they are the choices nonetheless.

a07a6688.jpg


“A vote is a means to an end, it’s the end that matters,” Frazer stated. He continued, “the ‘lesser of two evils’ issues is only a problem if both candidates would do evil if elected. Neither candidate is the embodiment of evil . . . but we know that one will do evil. I am going to vote against Hillary Clinton by punching the hole next to Donald Trump’s name. I'm not voting for Trump, I am voting against Clinton, for she will do evil.”

Many have expressed feeling discomfort in voting for either candidate, Frazer defined this as “feeling icky” and said, “As a human being, and not an animal, you have reason and your reason can overrule your emotions. No one likes surgery. It's icky. But you do it to achieve a better end, which is health. Allow your reason to overcome your emotions. There are bigger issues involved than your emotional comfort.”

After an hour-and-a-half discussion, where at times one could hear a pin drop, the panelists made their closing statements with Soeren Kern acknowledging that the "world is on a precipice, the conditions in the world are chaotic and the United States needs a leadership that will reassert its military power, and with that some sort of order." He went on to say that what is needed is, "Americanism, not Isolationism" when there are so many emerging world powers. Kern continued to explain that the current "lack of American leadership has left a void that has given rise to instability around the world." MacArthur concluded saying, "the most important 'agency' in the world is the church," and while he is concerned about what happens in the world, he is "far more concerned about what happens in the church." His final encouragement for the night was that "what happens in America has nothing to do with the kingdom of God".

img_3774.jpg
As Christians, we have a hope secured in Christ. We know that the chaos displayed in this election and the turbulence we witness on the news daily is only a means to an end for God. We know that He will establish His kingdom and that He works “for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose” (Rom 8:28). We're not promised, in a sin- stained world, that life will be easy or comfortable; in fact we're promised persecution. If we know “we can do all things through Christ who gives us strength”(Phil. 4:13), then we know --- no matter the outcome of the election or what we see unraveling around the globe --- we can still be a testimony to the God who saved us from corruption and the consequences of sin. As Christians we have the greatest platform and agenda of all: to share our faith.

In this election, like most that have come before it, we are not voting for the most “righteous” candidate. Our votes should be cast considering the issues each political party supports, especially when those issues directly contradict Scripture.

To watch the Summit please go to masters.edu/summit
 

Baptist Believer

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The thing I don't get about Trump supporters who say "vote the platform" is that they seem to think Trump will be a reliable steward of the Republican platform. He began his campaign by repudiating the Republican Party and has set aside many of the traditional Republican ideas.

Mr. Trump appears to have an incredibly poor track record of keeping his promises to everyone - including family, business partners, contractors, the public, etc. Mr. Trump does not seem to have a grasp of history, current events, the Constitution, or much else except whatever he is thinking at the moment. He is a deal-maker who often does not follow through on his promises He has not been especially successful in his business ventures. He is the type of entrepreneur that is alway looking for new investors to prop up his ventures instead of relying on profits to stabilize his business. He has hidden his finances from the public - although he promised he would - and that which has leaked has indicated he does not pay taxes.

The Republican Party has not been able to exercise much influence on him throughout the campaign. What makes these "platform" voters think the Republican platform is more than an irrelevant piece of paper to Mr. Trump?
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
The thing I don't get about Trump supporters who say "vote the platform" is that they seem to think Trump will be a reliable steward of the Republican platform. He began his campaign by repudiating the Republican Party and has set aside many of the traditional Republican ideas.

Mr. Trump appears to have an incredibly poor track record of keeping his promises to everyone - including family, business partners, contractors, the public, etc. Mr. Trump does not seem to have a grasp of history, current events, the Constitution, or much else except whatever he is thinking at the moment. He is a deal-maker who often does not follow through on his promises He has not been especially successful in his business ventures. He is the type of entrepreneur that is alway looking for new investors to prop up his ventures instead of relying on profits to stabilize his business. He has hidden his finances from the public - although he promised he would - and that which has leaked has indicated he does not pay taxes.

The Republican Party has not been able to exercise much influence on him throughout the campaign. What makes these "platform" voters think the Republican platform is more than an irrelevant piece of paper to Mr. Trump?
The thing I don't get is why the "vote the platform" types think that lost people or people mired in unrepentant sin care about their WHAT. They see the WHO is being voted for and immediately recognize the hypocrisy.

So MacArthur and all the others can try to justify their support of Trump with this whole platform thing all they want. Voting for Trump is support for Trump. And support for him is support for all the mess he's said and done.

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Calminian

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...Mr. Trump appears to have an incredibly poor track record of keeping his promises to everyone .....

Do you have any evidence to back his up? From what I can see, people close to him think very highly of him. His kids seem to adore him and respect him and seem very devoted to him. That to me shows he does have a good track record.

Also, his ex wife, the one he cheated on, reconciled with him and remained friends with him. That is also very impressive. How did he rebuild that friendship? She's even endorses him from president. If he's so bad why does she consider him such close friend.

And, people who work with him and employees have very high opinions of him. How could that be if he has such a bad track record as you say? If you you don't have a good reputation, people don't do business with you. Yet Trump does very well in business, and many of his colleagues think highly of him. Again, how does that happen if he's a bad as you say??

From what I can see, people who know Trump well, love him. So please share the evidence you have. Or are you just making false accusations?
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Do you have any evidence to back his up?


Yes. It's called the public record. Go pull some of the 4000+ lawsuits and read them.

From what I can see, people close to him think very highly of him. His kids seem to adore him and respect him and seem very devoted to him. That to me shows he does have a good track record.

That shows that he has them under his thumb because he controls the money.

Also, his ex wife, the one he cheated on, reconciled with him and remained friends with him. That is also very impressive.


[emoji23] It's called an agreement. If they want to keep receiving that money, they have to agree not to make disparaging remarks about him or their relationship. Very common arrangement similar to confidentiality agreements with their employees who work in their homes.

How did he rebuild that friendship?

[emoji38]

She's even endorses him from president. If he's so bad why does she consider him such close friend.

Money.

And, people who work with him and employees have very high opinions of him. How could that be if he has such a bad track record as you say? If you you don't have a good reputation, people don't do business with you. Yet Trump does very well in business, and many of his colleagues think highly of him. Again, how does that happen if he's a bad as you say??

From what I can see, people who know Trump well, love him. So please share the evidence you have. Or are you just making false accusations?

I can't[emoji23] . This is just sadly ridiculous.



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evangelist6589

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Yes. It's called the public record. Go pull some of the 4000+ lawsuits and read them.



That shows that he has them under his thumb because he controls the money.




[emoji23] It's called an agreement. If they want to keep receiving that money, they have to agree not to make disparaging remarks about him or their relationship. Very common arrangement similar to confidentiality agreements with their employees who work in their homes.



[emoji38]



Money.



I can't[emoji23] . This is just sadly ridiculous.



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Zaac it's not like your posts have shown themselves to be reliable in the past so why believe you?
 

Calminian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes. It's called the public record. Go pull some of the 4000+ lawsuits and read them.



That shows that he has them under his thumb because he controls the money.




[emoji23] It's called an agreement. If they want to keep receiving that money, they have to agree not to make disparaging remarks about him or their relationship. Very common arrangement similar to confidentiality agreements with their employees who work in their homes.



[emoji38]



Money.



I can't[emoji23] . This is just sadly ridiculous.



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sorry, failing to see the evidence you provided.
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Zaac it's not like your posts have shown themselves to be reliable in the past so why believe you?
This ain't about my posts. This avoids is about aversion to the truth and attempts to pretend like the truth isn't known no matter how public it is.

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Zaac

Well-Known Member
sorry, failing to see the evidence you provided.
I said go pull one of the 4000+ lawsuits. Your proof is there. I didn't say that I was gonna get the proof for you lol.

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Zaac

Well-Known Member
<snip>

And, people who work with him and employees have very high opinions of him. How could that be if he has such a bad track record as you say? If you you don't have a good reputation, people don't do business with you. Yet Trump does very well in business, and many of his colleagues think highly of him. Again, how does that happen if he's a bad as you say??

From what I can see, people who know Trump well, love him. So please share the evidence you have. Or are you just making false accusations?

I'm still cracking up over this.[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]


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Baptist Believer

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Do you have any evidence to back his up?
My goodness, if you don't notice it by now, you won't believe it if I tell you. There are an enormous numbers of legitimate lawsuits (as well as some more questionable ones) where Trump has not kept commitments to investors, business partners, etc. An obvious one is that he claimed he was going to release his tax returns - did not.

From what I can see, people close to him think very highly of him.
Those who depend on his for their livelihood are not going to shoot the golden goose.

His kids seem to adore him and respect him and seem very devoted to him.
Children want to believe the best about their parents. I don't know if "adore" is the right word, but those in the family business have multiple motivations to not publicly show dissent. I did notice that his daughter Tiffany ducked his kiss/embrace at the RNC, but that's open to interpretation.

That to me shows he does have a good track record.
There are a large number of people who have had dealings with him who don't think he's terrific. If you surround yourself only with "yes men," you will be praised.

Also, his ex wife, the one he cheated on, reconciled with him and remained friends with him. That is also very impressive. How did he rebuild that friendship? She's even endorses him from president. If he's so bad why does she consider him such close friend.
I have no idea. I personally know several people who have reconciled with their ex-spouses on behalf of their children and the need to set aside anger so they can live their lives. That doesn't mean that they approve.

And, people who work with him and employees have very high opinions of him.
It's not good for job security to speak poorly of the boss to the media - especially when the boss is a narcissist and obsesses over every perceived slight.

If you you don't have a good reputation, people don't do business with you.
US banks don't do business with him. He has to go overseas to get funds for his projects. You also need to realize that Trump is not the biggest develop in Manhattan, by a long shot. He has built up a brand that is more style than substance.

Yet Trump does very well in business, and many of his colleagues think highly of him. Again, how does that happen if he's a bad as you say??
He doesn't do that well. Certainly he claims he does well, but he won't reveal his finances that would certainly impress us if he actually was. I used to work for a guy who was quite similar to him except on a smaller scale. When paychecks were bouncing for office employees and he was laying off a half dozen a week, he was touting how successful he was. He was also very bad about paying bills and he loved to show the trappings of success. There was more than one time when I arrived at work and the door was chained because he had not paid the office lease in over 90 days. Yet, the public thought he was successful.

When he shows the public his taxes, I will reevaluate.
 

Alcott

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This ain't about my posts.

This-- his post-- ain't about what it is. Think of it as a snake starting to eat itself beginning from. its back end. How far can it go before there ain't any digestive system any more. Or do it finally disappear?
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
<snip>

Zaac, to address your constant statement that a vote for Trump destroys our witness, you may have a point. But on the other hand, you don't. The thing is, non-Christians have as diverse an opinion on the subject as those here on the board. One guy that I am trying to get to attend church that I go to school with I was discussing that view point. I didn't name names, but I brought you up and how you made that statement. And he, being a lost man, made the statement, "If someone told me they voted for Hillary and then told me they were a Christian, I'd laugh in their face." After a few minutes of conversation, he then further qualified, "I don't see how anyone that calls themselves a Christian could vote for anyone but Trump in this election."

Obviously someone confused by Christians who are supporting Trump and his wickedness. If Fox News and the majority of Christians says to support David Dukes, I guarantee that the general public would believe that to be the position that Christians should take.

Did you get him to further qualify his statement about why he believed a Christian should vote for Trump? And what about Trump strikes him as being aligned with Jesus?

So, a vote for Trump would cause you to lose your witness, but only to those lost who see things like you already do. A vote for anyone but Trump would cause me to lose my witness to this person. It also would cause me to lose my witness with many guys I served with in the past. So, you're not wrong in what you're saying. But you're not right, either.

You've already lost your witness with this guy by letting him incorrectly assume that there is something of Trumps behavior that is congruent to Jesus Christ and being a Christian.

It's a lot like drinking alcohol. I've had guys tell me before, "You go to church. You can't drink." For me to have drank with them would have wrecked my testimony in their eyes. But we had a (baptacostal) chaplain who drank. And he's won a few guys to Christ, and it all began with them being comfortable approaching him because they saw him drinking, and they knew he was a regular guy.

As I was telling someone before (can't remember exactly who on the board), we as Christians don't get to choose how the world perceives us. We can only do what we believe honors God. And then we trust Him to protect our witness.

Here's the problem. There are plenty of lost folks who are just as politically anchored to all things GOP as are some on this board. They think the GOP is always right and will naturally say that they think Christians should vote for Trump because that's their politics and they believe that to be correct.

And so you again end up giving the impression that there is nothing wrong with Trumps behavior and they don't think so either. So you still end up as a stumbling block.

There simply is no way around any Christian supporting Donald Trump and his wickedness without losing their own witnessing platform.

For me, Trump is the clear choice. For me, I can understand someone voting third party; I thought about doing that myself. But for me, a vote for Hillary is a vote against God.

I haven't told you to vote for Hillary though. You're not excusing Hillary's wickedness. You're excusing Trump's though and supporting him.

So what has Hillary done that is worse than what Trump has done in that you make it look like all his wickedness doesn't matter, but her's does?

Because I say again, if Christians are gonna look the other way at all of his wickedness because of one issue with which you think is greater than others, then you still cut your nose off to spite your face.

You simply cannot non-hypocritically reject her on an issue of morality while turning a blind eye to his immorality and saying his is not as heinous as hers.

It's not only hypocritical but idolatrous.



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Sapper Woody

Well-Known Member
Obviously someone confused by Christians who are supporting Trump and his wickedness. If Fox News and the majority of Christians says to support David Dukes, I guarantee that the general public would believe that to be the position that Christians should take.

Did you get him to further qualify his statement about why he believed a Christian should vote for Trump? And what about Trump strikes him as being aligned with Jesus?
I didn't ask him directly about why he believed a Christian should/would vote for Trump. But, through other conversations with him, I know him to be pretty conservative. Not in all areas, but most (for instance, he believes that more gun control is a good thing). Through our talks I've gleaned that he doesn't see Trump as a paragon of virtue, but rather he sees Hillary as evil.

You've already lost your witness with this guy by letting him incorrectly assume that there is something of Trumps behavior that is congruent to Jesus Christ and being a Christian.
That's a pretty big jump there. As I've said before, your witness to the lost is based upon their perceptions. If someone only knew the word "Baptist" by Westboro, for instance, your witness is immediately lost if you say you are a Baptist because of their preconceived notions. All we can do is do our best to please God, and let the chips fall where they may.

With the differences that you and I have, I guarantee that there are people that you could win that I couldn't, and vice versa. And God will bless our efforts if we are following Him to the best of our ability.

Here's the problem. There are plenty of lost folks who are just as politically anchored to all things GOP as are some on this board. They think the GOP is always right and will naturally say that they think Christians should vote for Trump because that's their politics and they believe that to be correct.
And if that's what they believe a Christian should believe, then they're going to be more open to someone who thinks that way. Not that I do. There is a lot that I disagree with the GOP on (the current GOP, not what the GOP is supposed to be). I registered as a Republican, but I consider myself an independent. I can honestly say that if there were a democrat that I thought would be better for the nation (or county, state, etc) that I would vote for them.

And so you again end up giving the impression that there is nothing wrong with Trumps behavior and they don't think so either. So you still end up as a stumbling block.
If me being a "stumbling block" ends up causing him to stumble into church and into salvation, I'll gladly be a stumbling block.

There simply is no way around any Christian supporting Donald Trump and his wickedness without losing their own witnessing platform.
I believe I've shown otherwise.

I haven't told you to vote for Hillary though.
I understand that, and that part of the post wasn't meant to be aimed directly at you. It was just a general statement of how I feel that God would have us vote as Christians.

You're not excusing Hillary's wickedness. You're excusing Trump's though and supporting him.
I haven't excused Trump of anything. If you look back, on this board I've held the same standard that you attempt to hold. I've defended inaccuracies, and brought up other testimony contrary to what some accusers are saying, and that's it. And I haven't attacked Hillary a single time.

Using what you've said, Hillary isn't (currently, although it's beginning to look like possibly in the future) being tried for anything, and she hasn't been convicted of anything. Neither has Trump. To be fair and consistent, you can't call Trump the things you've said about him and still maintain Hillary's innocence as neither one has been convicted.

So what has Hillary done that is worse than what Trump has done in that you make it look like all his wickedness doesn't matter, but her's does?
His wickedness matters. And that's why I almost decided to vote third party. But I believe that for me to be a good steward of my vote, I need to give it to Trump. For me, to vote third party would be to take my talent and bury it. I know you feel otherwise, and I know we're not going to see eye to eye on that. But just like you have to do as you feel God is leading, so do I.

Because I say again, if Christians are gonna look the other way at all of his wickedness because of one issue with which you think is greater than others, then you still cut your nose off to spite your face.

You simply cannot non-hypocritically reject her on an issue of morality while turning a blind eye to his immorality and saying his is not as heinous as hers.

It's not only hypocritical but idolatrous..
Trump has a lot of allegations against him. And so does Hillary. Neither has been convicted of any crimes. I don't reject her on an issue of morality. I reject her on the grounds that I believe that if she were elected, she would lead us (as a nation) further from God than Trump would.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The thing I don't get about Trump supporters who say "vote the platform" is that they seem to think Trump will be a reliable steward of the Republican platform. He began his campaign by repudiating the Republican Party and has set aside many of the traditional Republican ideas.

Mr. Trump appears to have an incredibly poor track record of keeping his promises to everyone - including family, business partners, contractors, the public, etc. Mr. Trump does not seem to have a grasp of history, current events, the Constitution, or much else except whatever he is thinking at the moment. He is a deal-maker who often does not follow through on his promises He has not been especially successful in his business ventures. He is the type of entrepreneur that is alway looking for new investors to prop up his ventures instead of relying on profits to stabilize his business. He has hidden his finances from the public - although he promised he would - and that which has leaked has indicated he does not pay taxes.

The Republican Party has not been able to exercise much influence on him throughout the campaign. What makes these "platform" voters think the Republican platform is more than an irrelevant piece of paper to Mr. Trump?
I can only answer for myself, but I was going to vote for the GOP regardless of who they chose to be their candidate with the exception of their platform being altered by their choice (and make no mistake, what is chosen is a candidate to represent a party...and we are all voting for either platforms or personalities).

I do believe that Trump will, if elected, work towards the ends that he states. I see no reason that he would not at least strive to that end. Democrats will never embrace him, so all he has left (in terms of his precious ego) is to at least try to do right by the GOP :Biggrin. He would not have been my choice, but he is the one that the political party standing for that platform that I support has chosen.
 

Calminian

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I can only answer for myself, but I was going to vote for the GOP regardless of who they chose to be their candidate with the exception of their platform being altered by their choice (and make no mistake, what is chosen is a candidate to represent a party...and we are all voting for either platforms or personalities).

I do believe that Trump will, if elected, work towards the ends that he states. I see no reason that he would not at least strive to that end. Democrats will never embrace him, so all he has left (in terms of his precious ego) is to at least try to do right by the GOP :Biggrin. He would not have been my choice, but he is the one that the political party standing for that platform that I support has chosen.

This is essentially what MacArthur said. He actually doesn't believe Trump is the lesser of 2 evils because he doesn't believe Trump will actually do evil. Regardless of Trump's past immorality, he's good on policy and believes in those policies. As one panelist put it:

....“the ‘lesser of two evils’ issues is only a problem if both candidates would do evil if elected. Neither candidate is the embodiment of evil . . . but we know that one will do evil. I am going to vote against Hillary Clinton by punching the hole next to Donald Trump’s name. I'm not voting for Trump, I am voting against Clinton, for she will do evil.”​

To me this what the Christian vote is all about. Vote for the governors that will do the most good in accordance God's purposes for government. MacArthur and his panelists know Trump is the best choice. Not only will Trump not do evil, he will do good. I actually believe he'll do more good than the Bushes did by far. He might even rival the good Reagan did.
 

Calminian

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The thing I don't get about Trump supporters who say "vote the platform" is that they seem to think Trump will be a reliable steward of the Republican platform. He began his campaign by repudiating the Republican Party and has set aside many of the traditional Republican ideas.....

This is so false, it's ridiculous. We Christians should thank Trump for being strong on issues the other "christian" candidates wouldn't even mention.

Donald Trump supports:
  • the appointment of conservative Supreme Justices like Scalia and Thomas.
  • (this alone should be enough to sway any evangelical voter)
  • localized education, and the rejection of Common Core.
  • (a strong 10th Amendment stance)
  • school choice, including the choice to homeschool.
  • a tax plan that includes a 15% corporate tax rate.
  • (endorsed by most Reagan economists)
  • a secure border, which includes a border wall to help border agents.
  • the deportation of all illegal aliens, forcing them to enter, or reenter, the country legally.
  • strong gun rights.
  • a strong military, and increased military spending.
  • better treatment of our military vets.
  • the destruction of ISIS.
  • the blocking of immigrants who support Sharia Law (Islamic law), until we can figure out a better way to vet the extremists among them.
  • smart defense agreements with allies, requiring them to pay their fair share for our military services.
  • the destruction of bad trade agreements, like TPP, which take away american jobs.
  • the repealing and replacing of ObamaCare.
  • pro-capitalistic alternatives to ObamaCare such as medical savings accounts.
  • the rejection of Global Warming extremism.
 
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