Jonah, Wanted Dead or alive -- Part 1

[Herb Evans]

JONAH: WANTED, DEAD or ALIVE!​

. . . NO SIGN shall be given it [to an evil and Jewish adulterous generation], but the SIGN of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the WHALES BELLY; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the HEART of the earth. --Matt. 12:39, 40

A preacher was asked by a liberal college professor whether he thought that Jonah was actually swallowed by the whale. The preacher responded, “Well, when I get to heaven, I will ask Jonah.” The unbelieving professor responded, “What if Jonah is not in heaven?” The preacher retorted, “In that case, you ask him.” (For all you skeptics, there have been actual cases of other human beings swallowed by whales that lived.)

To the question whether Jonah was dead or alive in the whale (Jonah 1:17-2:9) many Christians derive their answer from a suggested over-exaggeration of typology in Matthew 12:40, taking all of the now known but unmentioned details of Jesus’ death and resurrection experience and applying them to Jonah.

The fact that Jesus died and was resurrected means to them that Jonah must have died and then finally resurrected. Therefore, a closer look at Matthew 12:40 must be taken, regarding the differences between Jesus’ and Jonah’s account to show these stretches and exaggerations. If a TYPE, Jonah being DEAD in the whale, 3days/nights, does not answer Jesus being ALIVE in the heart of the earth. One would think the parallel should be Jonah in the heart of the earth rather than in the whale or Jesus in the sepulcher and not the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40 should be interpreted as a SIGN to the Jews, rather than an exact TYPE, for Jesus did call it a SIGN and for the following differences:

1. Jesus and Jonah are different people, one is the God/man and the other is a Calvinist.

2. Jesus and Jonah were located in different places, Jesus was in the heart of the earth; Jonah was in the whale’s belly for the 3days/nights.

3. Jesus and Jonah were in these different places for different reasons. Christ was there because of obedience; Jonah was there because of disobedience.

4. Neither the death of Jesus nor Jonah is mentioned, nor the resurrection of Jesus nor is Jonah mentioned in Matthew 12:40 or Jonah 2.

5. Nothing is the same in the 2 accounts except the time element of 3 days and 3 nights.

6. No one is resurrected until Jesus and the first-fruits are resurrected (after the atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ - Matt. 27:52, 53).

7. Jonah agrees with Christ as to the location from which he cried out to God.

8. Can prayers from hell be prayed, heard, and answered? From out of the Whale’s Belly?

The Narrative--What God Said ​

Now the LORD prepared a GREAT FISH to swallow up Jonah [Jonah the person, not his dead body]. And Jonah [the person, not his dead body] was in the belly of the fish [neither hell nor sheol] for three days and three nights. THEN JONAH PRAYED unto the LORD his God OUT of the fish’s BELLY [neither hell nor sheol]. -- Jonah 1:17 to 2:1

Some would point out that a whale is not a fish, per our modern biological phyla, contradicting the KJB rendering of the word that Jesus used (whose underlying word is KETOS, from where we get Ketology or the study of whales rather than ICTHUS or fish).

Nevertheless, here, God is said to prepare for Jonah a GREAT FISH and not a place in the underworld.) From the entrance of Jonah into the GREAT fish until Jonah’s exit thereof, there were 3 days/nights. Jonah was therefore alive from his entrance to his exit. God said it was Jonah the person, not Jonah the body.

Even Jesus’ body is referred to as the “body of Jesus” (everywhere except one place, which has it in the context of the “body of Jesus”). Jonah prays this 2nd prayer from inside the whale, recounting his experiences and FIRST prayer in the DEEP. It is interesting that during Jonah’s time in the great fish’s belly that Jonah PRAYED from there. Now, Jonah had to use some of that time to pray (while ALIVE inside the whale), if Jonah was in the fish 3 days and three nights. It would be a bit unusual for a dead body to pray.

Comparatively, Jesus’ body was not alive in the sepulcher and did not pray from there. Now, it also would be very inconsistent to say that Jonah was alive, part of the time, and dead, part of the time, completely destroying one’s own already stretched typology of three days and three nights.

The Narrative - What Jonah Said About His Experience​

And said, I CRIED by reason of my affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the BELLY OF HELL cried I, and thou HEARDEST my voice. FOR thou hast cast me in the DEEP, in the midst of the SEAS; and the FLOODS COMPASSED ME about: all the BILLOWS and thy WAVES passed over me. -- Jonah 2:2, 3

HELL from BENEATH is moved for thee to MEET THEE at thy COMING: it stirreth up the DEAD for thee . . . Thy pomp is brought DOWN to the GRAVE . . . -- Isa. 14:9-11

. . . my SOUL is full of troubles: and my LIFE draweth NIGH unto the GRAVE. I am counted with them that GO DOWN INTO the PIT: I am AS a man that hath no strength: Free AMONG the DEAD, LIKE the SLAIN that lie IN THE GRAVE . . . Thou hast laid me in the LOWEST PIT, in darkness, in the DEEPS. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast AFFLICTED me with all thy WAVES. -- Psalm 88:3-7

When the WAVES of death COMPASSED me, the FLOODS of ungodly men made me afraid; the SORROWS OF HELL COMPASSED ME about; the snares of DEATH prevented [old word for anticipated] me; In my DISTRESS I called upon the LORD; and CRIED to my God: and he DID HEAR my voice OUT OF HIS TEMPLE [see Jonah 2:4] and my cry did enter his ears. -- 2 Sam 22::6 [See also Psalm 18:4, 5 for the same record]

Jonah recounts his experiences and first prayer from the DEEP in the framework of his second prayer from the whale’s belly. He recounts his former affliction and subsequent cry to the Lord, who heard him. This cry was not from the whale’s belly but from the “belly of hell,” which is explained throughout this article, including the above passages.

Some would tell us that this term refers to the gastric juice of the whale. Others would tell us that Jonah was in a burning hell. Yet, others would tell us that he was in the paradise underworld. Nevertheless, Jonah was IN the WATER, in the midst of the SEA, in the DEEP. Rather than arbitrarily assume (from one’s forced point of view) what the “belly of hell” means, why not allow Jonah to describe what he meant by the term?

The narrative is merely recording Jonah’s words and Jonah’s perceptions (2:2 - 9), as Jonah realizes that he is at death’s door, ready to perish in a watery grave. The “belly of hell” is anticipated and referred to, as Jonah anticipates DEATH and the unseen world. Many elements of Jonah 2 match David’s words in the Psalms and Samuel; one would think that Jonah was reading David’s mail or that he was likening his experience with that of David. We seriously doubt, whether the SORROWS OF HELL were due to a visit by David to Hell fire or even to the underworld paradise, for that matter.

 

[Herb Evans]

Jonah, Wanted Dead or Alive, Part 2

JONAH: WANTED, DEAD or ALIVE! (continued)​

Jonah in the DEEP Continued​

THEN [When? Where? -- While in the DEEP?] I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy HOLY TEMPLE. The WATERS compassed me about, even to the soul; the DEPTH closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped around my head. I went DOWN to the bottoms of the MOUNTAINS; the EARTH with her BARS was about me FOR EVER [obviously, this was Jonah’s anticipatory perception of his fate in his own words, for it was not to be for ever.] --Jonah 2:4 - 6

So what does Jonah do? Jonah cries out to the Lord from the DEEP, compassed with WATER (rather than compassed with hell fire), sea WEED, BILLOWS, and WAVES and Jonah goes to the bottoms of the mountains. While in the deep, with the waters compassing Jonah, he realizes his spiritual problem and repents.

Once again, realizing where his help must come, Jonah decides to trust the LORD in his spiritual awakening and revival. The watery saga in the DEEP continues, after Jonah’s prayer, with Jonah still conscious of what is happening, still alive.

Unless one is prepared to contend for sea weed, billows, waves, and water, and the deep existing in a burning hell or in a paradise underworld, the consideration must be that Jonah is still in the watery DEEP, alive. Jonah’s perception was that of, “I ain’t getting out of this one; it is FOR EVER.” Jonah is at the very gates of death/hell, but will he be rescued? Tune into the next caption.

Jonah is Rescued​

. . . YET hast thou BROUGHT UP MY LIFE [brought UP still alive] from CORRUPTION [Did you get that? No death and no corruption for Jonah], Oh LORD my God. WHEN my soul FAINTED WITHIN me [Jonah’s SOUL is still WITHIN him] I remembered the LORD: and MY PRAYER came unto you [Jonah still recounting 2:2] and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine HOLY TEMPLE [see Verse 4]. -- Jonah 2: 6, 7

The LORD killeth and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the GRAVE, and bringeth UP . . . -- 1 Sam. 2:6

Jonah recounts his rescue from the deep [no doubt, here, he enters the air breathing whale and is rescued. Gasp! Whew!] This BEGINS Jonah’s 3 days and 3 night’s whale school experience. When Jonah PRAYED and cried and looked to God for help, he was, no doubt, nigh unto death, approaching the under world. Jonah did not die but rather FAINTED, and the Lord rescued him from the deep and sent him to Whale College. No death or corruption for Jonah. The Whale was a grace and mercy rescue, the DEEP was the chastisement.

Thankful Jonah Contrasts Himself with the Lost​

They that observe lying vanities [the lost] forsake their own MERCY. BUT I will sacrifice to thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD [for all you ultra disps]. --Jonah 2:8, 9

After being rescued by the Whale, Jonah, the Calvinist, breathes a sigh of relief and says, I am glad that one is over. Jonah is thankful and appreciative, and promises to make sacrifice and to pay his vows. He recognizes (even in the O.T.) that salvation is of the LORD!

After the SIGN of 3 Days and 3 Nights​

And the Lord spake unto the fish [the actual narrative again], and it vomited out Jonah on dry land. -- Jonah 2:10

God uses everything to accomplish His purpose. He even used Jonah’s disobedience to create a comparative sign for Israel, who knew nothing about the death and burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ in relation to Jonah until after the resurrection. They did know, however, about the 3 days and 3 nights of Jonah in the whale.

Regarding This Belly of Hell:​

1. Jonah said the water compassed him in this belly of hell (no water in a burning hell)


2. Jonah said the sea weed wrapped around his head in this belly of hell.


3. Jonah said there were billows and waves and floods in this belly of hell.


4. Jonah called the belly of hell the DEEP.


5. Jonah said that his body sank to the bottoms of the mountains in the belly of hell.


6. Jonah's said that his SOUL was still WITHIN him, in this belly of hell, although he fainted.


7. Jonah's said that his LIFE was brought UP from this belly of hell.


8. Jonah agrees with Christ as to the location of the place from which he cried out from, namely, the whale.


9. Can prayers be prayed, heard, and answered from hell? From a Whale’s belly?


10. Jesus and Jonah were located in different places, Jesus was in the heart of the earth; Jonah was in the whale’s belly for the 3days/nights.

 

[Herb Evans]

Jonah Addendum

Addendum: Hell Etymology​

There is more than one hell in the Old Testament, unseen underworld (also the N.T.). The final hell, the temporary hell, the angels that sinned hell (no fire-just dark with chains), the lowest hell, and the paradise hell! Most folks think that believers went to the paradise hell, which some erroneously call Abraham’s bosom.

Jonah would have to be in that underworld place, if he died, if you believe that he was saved. But nothing in Jonah 2 indicates that he died. Quite the contrary! So what does the word hell describe in the old Testament? It describes the unseen underworld or nether world that all went to prior to the resurrection of Christ, when Jesus took all the saved prisoners from the underworld to heaven’s paradise, after paying their redemption and being resurrected Himself.

The difference between the lost and the saved in this prison was that they were prisoners in separate parts of the unseen underworld. The patriarchs called it the grave, where they were gathered unto their people, JW's notwithstanding. The saved and the lost were there in that underworld together but separately in different compartments with a great gulf fixed between them. The saved compartment is now empty; only the angel’s hell and burning hell for the damned remain.

The Dictionaries​

​

Hell, hel, n. [O.E.hell = D. hel = G. hole = lcel. hel = Goth. halja, hell; root of O.E. helan, cover, hide.] – Webster (1971)

Hell, n. [Sax, helle, G Holle; D. Hel, helle; Sw. Helvete; Dan. Helvede. Qu. HOLE, a DEEP place, or from Sax, to COVER.]

1. place or state of punishment for the wicked after death. Mat 10, Luke 12

2. The place of the dead, or souls after death; the LOWER REGIONS, or the GRAVE; called in Hebrew, sheol, and by the Greeks, hades. Psa. 16. --Webster’s 1828

Hence the hidden and covered hole or unseen world or prison (where they were thrown into the “HOLE” or the PIT). We asked a Greek restaurant owner, where we frequent, what Hades meant to a Greek.

He told us that it was a connotation of the unseen world, rather than a connotation of a fiery place (which is usually determined by the context, where it does, indeed, mean a burning hell). He told us that the word’s combination roots were “NOT” and “SEEN.”

This is consistent with Strong’s explanation of a negative particle attached to the past tense of “to see” or “seen” (Hades-unseen) and also with some of the “unseen underworld of the departed spirits” definitions of “hell” in the various English dictionaries, all consistent with the O.T. view of Sheol, the counterpart of HADES.

We are contending that Jonah was in neither the burning hell nor any “Sheol” nor any non burning hell (to cite the angel’s hell as an example) nor grave, although Jonah did approach the underworld and nearly died. Now, hell in the O.T. is in the nether parts of the earth, the unseen underworld.

Of course, the saved, fire-free part of this underworld prison was emptied at the resurrection, but the hell for the angels and the lost still remains, with that of the angels (not necessarily burning but in chains of darkness).

The O.T. “saints were also within the earth (Psalm 16:3), BEFORE Christ's resurrection. The saved and the lost were there in that underworld together but separately in different compartments with a great gulf fixed between them. The saved compartment is now empty; only the angel’s hell and burning hell for the damned remain.

--by Herb Evans


Note: There are actual reported cases in more recent times of men who have survived the ordeal of being swallowed by a whale. Note as Follows:

The Princeton Theological Review (Oct., 1927) tells of two incidents, one in 1758 and the other in 1771, in which a man was swallowed by a whale and vomited up shortly thereafter with only minor injuries.

One of the most striking instances comes from Francis Fox, Sixty Three Years of Engineering (pp. 295-300), who reports that this incident was carefully investigated by two scientists (one of whom was M. DeParville, the scientific editor of the Journal Des Debars in Paris). In February, 1891, the whaling ship, Star of the East, was in the vicinity of the Falkland Islands, and the lookout sighted a large sperm whale three miles away. Two boats were lowered and in a short time, one of the harpooners was enabled to spear the creature. The second boat also attacked the whale, but was then upset by a lash of its tail, so that its crew fell into the sea. One of them was drowned, but the other, James Bartley, simply disappeared without a trace. After the whale was killed, the crew set to work with axes and spades removing the blubber.

They worked all day and part of the night. The next day they attached some tackle to the stomach, which was hoisted on deck. The sailors were startled by something in it which gave spasmodic signs of life, and inside was found the missing sailor, doubled up and unconscious. He was laid on the deck and treated to a bath of sea water which soon revived him. At the end of the third week, he had entirely recovered from the shock and resumed his duties. His face, and neck and hands were bleached to a deadly whiteness and took on the appearance of parchment. Bartley affirms that he would probably have lived inside his house of flesh until he starved, for he lost his senses through fright and not through lack of air." (A Survey of Old Testament Introduction), p. 302.

 

[Bluefalcon]

Methinks someone has spent a little too much time in a Bible institute somewheres.

 

[Herb Evans]

Methinks someone has spent a little too much time in a Bible institute somewheres.

Actually, I am a high school drop out. I did get my GED in the military. No Bible school or institute for me, they would have ruined me. -- Herb Evans

 

[James_Newman]

Note: There are actual reported cases in more recent times of men who have survived the ordeal of being swallowed by a whale. Note as Follows:

Well, that's a whale of a tale.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/n/newjonah.htm

 

[Herb Evans]

Well, that's a whale of a tale.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/n/newjonah.htm

Yes, let's let everyone read it. -- Herb Evans



The Truth:
The story dates back to the late 19th century and involves a whaling ship named the 'Star of the East', operating off the Falkland Islands in the South Atlantic.

According to most accounts, a whale was sighted, the harpoon boats were launched, and the whale was successfully speared.
In the violence that followed, however, one of the smaller boats capsized, throwing two crew members into the sea.
One of them drowned and the other, said to be a man named James Bartley, disappeared.

The whale was eventually subdued and its carcass hoisted onto the ship where the crew started carving it up for blubber.

After a couple of days of work, they got down to the stomach, where some workers noticed something large inside, 'doubled up', and showing signs of life.

They cut the stomach open and there lay James Bartley, unconscious and somewhat digested, but alive.

They doused him with sea water, put him in the captain's cabin and after a couple of weeks of recovery, he was back on the job.

Most accounts of the story also include a detailed description of what Bartley experienced and felt during his whale of a journey.

He is quoted as saying that he remembered flying through the air when the whale struck the boat with its tail – and then suddenly being in darkness and slipping along a smooth passage of some sort.
He then came into a larger area marked by a slimy substance that seemed to shrink from his touch.

He finally realized that he was in the whale.

He said that he could breathe, but that it was very hot in there.
At some point he lost consciousness and the next thing he remembered was being cared for by the crew.

Some versions of the story say his skin was permanently affected by the gastric juices in the whale, and that he had a bleached white appearance for the remainder of his life.

Other versions describe his skin as having been left with a bluish color.
There have been a few other, similar stories, but researchers suspect that they all have the same origin.

The story of James Bartley is therefore of greatest interest, since there are so many accounts of it and they include enough information to allow some good digging to be done.

The definitive research into this story has been done by Edward B. Davis, a professor at Messiah College in Grantham, Pennsylvania.

He was curious to try to document the story since it was so often repeated in Christian literature and had even found its way into several Bible commentaries.

His research is summarized in an article in 'The American Scientific Affiliation', published in 1991.


Davis not only scoured newspaper files, original documents and libraries, but spent time in England tracking down some of the sources.
He verified, for example, that there really had been a vessel named the 'Star of the East' and that its captain was a man named J.B. Killam.
He followed the trail of the great British engineer, Sir Francis Fox, who was so struck with the Bartley story that he included a chapter on it in his autobiography, published in 1924. The result of Davis's research was that he could not find any credible evidence to support the James Bartley story.

In fact, he found evidence which made the story seem more questionable.

He checked out a report that Bartley had been treated at a London hospital for the effects of the whale's gastric juices on his skin, but could not find any substantiation for it.

When he read through the documents about the particular voyage during which the alleged whale incident happened, James Bartley was not listed as a crew member.

More damaging to the story was a letter written by the wife of the captain of the 'Star of the East,' Mrs John Killam.

The contents of her letter were published in 1907 in 'The Expository Times' by a reader who had corresponded with Mrs Killam about the whale story.
She said, "There is not one word of truth to the whale story. I was with my husband all the years he was in the Star of the East. There was never a man lost overboard while my husband was with her. The sailor has told a great sea yarn."

The story has been widely repeated by a number of conservative Christian writers, including Bernard Ramm, Harry Rimmer and the creationist Henry Morris; and also in the Tyndale Old Testament Commentary on Jonah and the IVP Bible Dictionary.

One of the alleged sources of the James Bartley story was a newspaper report published in Great Yarmouth, on the east coast of England.
Davis visited the port and found an article that gave an account of the story, but it offered nothing to help support the facts of it.

He also found a whale story dated 1891 – the same year as most of the James Bartley accounts.

According to the story, a 30-foot rorqual whale caused a stir when it came close to the shore off the town of Gorleston, near Great Yarmouth. It ran against the town's pier and beached itself while being chased by several boats.

The whale became a local celebrity and was known as 'the Gorleston Whale'.

The carcass was hoisted, became an exhibit for a couple of days, and then a taxidermist stuffed it and it was displayed in the London Westminster Aquarium.

According to Davis, two of the clippings he found about the Gorleston Whale, including one written within days of the event, reported that the story had 'inspired a number of exaggerated tales.'
Has there ever been another human being besides Jonah who has survived being swallowed by a sea creature?
We can't say, and it is not our purpose to challenge the scriptural story.. Stories such as the one about James Bartley, however, have not measured up to a standard of reliable evidence.

Thanks to Edward B. Davis for agreeing to this use of his research material, and for checking the accuracy of this report.
Click this link for the full story of Edward Davis's research into the whale story.

Updated 7/24/05
For more information:

A real example of the story as it has been circulated:

In February, 1891, the "Star of the East", a whaling ship from Liverpool, England was hunting whales in the South Atlantic near the Falkland Islands. A whale was sighted and two boats sent to kill it. The first boat successfully harpooned the whale, but the whale swam away, dragging the boat for about five miles. Later, the harpooner in the accompanying boat also succeeded in harpooning the whale. Both boats were towed about three miles by the whale, then it "sounded" or went below the surface, then later came back to the surface but in it's death throes, capsized one of the whaling boats. All but two crew members were rescued by the other boat and presumed lost at sea.

A few hours later, the now dead whale was lashed to the side of the ship and the crew began the task of cutting it up. When they came to the stomach, they hoisted onto the deck and were shocked to see something moving around inside. They quickly cut the stomach open and found one of the missing sailors, 35 year old James Bartley, inside alive, but unconscious.. He was soon revived, but for two weeks was delerious. By the end of the third week he had recovered sufficiently to go about his duties again.

The sailor remembered the beginning of his ordeal and being being lifted into the air then dropping into the water. After that he said he heard a horrible rushing sound, which he thought might have been the beating of the water by the whale's tail, and then he was enveloped in a terrible darkness and found himself slipping along a smooth passage that seemed to carry him forward. He finally realized he had been swallowed by the whale, and although he tried to be brave, he passed out and didn't remember anything beyond that.

Back in England, Bartley was taken to a London hospital. His skin had been bleached and wrinkled to the appearance of old parchment by the gastric juices of the whale's stomach, and never looked normal again although he enjoyed good health.

 

[James_Newman]

Many people in the bible were brought back to life after they died. I don't know why you think it is so imperative that Jonah managed to breathe sea water for three days.

 

[Herb Evans]

Many people in the bible were brought back to life after they died. I don't know why you think it is so imperative that Jonah managed to breathe sea water for three days.

Two things wrong here.

1. Jonah did not die, he fainted (2:7).
2. He did not breathe sea water for 3 days; he was in the whale's belly for three days breathing air. -- Herb Evans

 

[James_Newman]

Two things wrong here.

1. Jonah did not die, he fainted (2:7).

Jonah 2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

That does not say he fainted. It doesn't necessarilly mean he died, but it doesn't mean he fainted.

Psalms 107:5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them.

Psalms 119:81 My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

2. He did not breathe sea water for 3 days; he was in the whale's belly for three days breathing air. -- Herb Evans

How much air do you suppose is in a whale's belly? How much air would a man require for three days? I think it would be considerable.

Jonah 2:5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

Does seaweed float in the air? When you go to the beach, does it climb out of the water and wrap itself around your head?

Jonah 2:6
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

You seem to think that this says that God never allowed Jonah to see corruption. But what it says is his life was brought up from corruption.

Exodus 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.

So the Israelites were never in Egypt? Or were the brought out from Egypt?

2 Samuel 6:12 And it was told king David, saying, The LORD hath blessed the house of Obed-edom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom into the city of David with gladness.

Was the ark never in the house of Obed-edom? Or was it brought up from the house of Obed-edom?

Jonah was dead and in hell and God brought him back up. Just like He brought back Lazarus, He brought back Jonah. I know you cannot stomach the thought of someone going to hell and then coming out again, but where do you suppose Lazarus went when He died? Did his soul faint and he waited in the tomb for four days until the Lord came to wake him up? He did say he was sleeping, didn't he? But what about that Lazarus in the story of the rich man? Wasn't that the same Lazarus?

Luke 16:23
23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

There is no reason to disbelieve the literal interpretation of Jonah going to hell and then being revived inside the whale and spat out, especially if you are going to try to convince us 'scientifically' that a man can survive three days in a whale's belly. If you want to say that God miraculously preserved Jonah, fine. The text doesn't say that, but you can believe it. But the same God that can miraculously preserve a man in a whale, can also kill a man and then raise him back up again.

 

[npetreley]

1. Jesus and Jonah are different people, one is the God/man and the other is a Calvinist.

Sigh. I might have laughed it if wasn't so typical of uneducated views of Calvinism.

 

[Herb Evans]

Originally Posted by Herb Evans
Two things wrong here.

1. Jonah did not die, he fainted (2:7).



Jonah 2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

That does not say he fainted. It doesn't necessarilly mean he died, but it doesn't mean he fainted.

Psalms 107:5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them.

Psalms 119:81 My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

Well, if Jonah did not faint and did not die, what did Jonah do? The word faint is there and the word "die" is not, so do you want to go with what is in the scripture or what is not? -- Herb Evans

Quote:
2. He did not breathe sea water for 3 days; he was in the whale's belly for three days breathing air. -- Herb Evans
How much air do you suppose is in a whale's belly? How much air would a man require for three days? I think it would be considerable.

You tell me, since you are adept in using humanistic reasoning and facts. -- Herb Evans

Jonah 2:5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

Does seaweed float in the air? When you go to the beach, does it climb out of the water and wrap itself around your head?

Well, ah . . . no, but give the poor guy a chance to get into the whale after being thrown overboard in the water, before the whale saved him. This is a description by Jonah about his experience, not a Holy Spirit narrative. "Me" and "my" are the ones talking. -- Herb Evans

Jonah 2:6
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

You seem to think that this says that God never allowed Jonah to see corruption. But what it says is his life was brought up from corruption.

That is exactly what I think and what I am saying

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Isa 38:17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.

In order to be a type of the Lord dying going to the heart of the earth and being resurrection, the type has to be the whale's belly. You are Killing Jonah, sending him to hell, and then resurrecting him in the whale's belly. If it does not fit, you must aquit.

I agree that God brought up HIS LIFE but that does not help you because his life had not died, and he therefore escaped corruption. If Jonah saw corruption, the Lord must see corruption. -- Herb Evans

Exodus 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.

So the Israelites were never in Egypt? Or were the brought out from Egypt?

2 Samuel 6:12 And it was told king David, saying, The LORD hath blessed the house of Obed-edom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom into the city of David with gladness.

Was the ark never in the house of Obed-edom? Or was it brought up from the house of Obed-edom?

Well, I forgot that you like to play Concordance Clarence. You are trying to take advantage of an English nuance here. Yes, Jonah was brought up, because his bosdy went to the bottom of the mountains. And it was his body that was brought up as well as his life that escaped corruption. Try another concordnce Clarence verse that is much more appropriate and relevant:

Psa 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. -- Herb Evans

Jonah was dead and in hell and God brought him back up.

No, Jonah was not dead and in hell and then presumably resurrected to fulfill the type death, 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in the whale's belly. So much for pontification. If it does not fit, you must aquit. -- Herb Evans

Just like He brought back Lazarus, He brought back Jonah.

Oh? So, now Lazarus was in hell fire being in torment? Great theology, Jim, if you can get someone to swallow it. -- Herb Evans

I know you cannot stomach the thought of someone going to hell and then coming out again, but where do you suppose Lazarus went when He died?

Lazarus went to a hell paradise where he was conforted and not tormented. I hope that you can grasp that there is more than one hell or pit in the earth. -- Herb Evans

Did his soul faint and he waited in the tomb for four days until the Lord came to wake him up? He did say he was sleeping, didn't he? But what about that Lazarus in the story of the rich man? Wasn't that the same Lazarus? Luke 16:23
23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

I hate to tell you this, but that was the RICH MAN that was in torments in hell and not Lazarus, who was in the bosom of Abraham being comforted in another place.

It does Lazarus fainted; it does say that about Jonah. One thing for sure, Lazarus was not burning in hell. -- Herb Evans

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

There is no reason to disbelieve the literal interpretation of Jonah going to hell and then being revived inside the whale and spat out, . . .

Well, if you do not know anything about hell and how the word is used in the O.T. I won't be able to convince you of anything. And if you can't read the Jonah's words, I vannot help you. He prayed OUT OF THE FISH'S BELLY, crying by reason of his affliction. If you cannot grasp that, what more can I do? -- Herb Evans


Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jonah 2:1, 2

. . . especially if you are going to try to convince us 'scientifically' that a man can survive three days in a whale's belly.

I am not trying to convince you of that. That was just a bit of info that I came by. I don't try to convince anyone scientifically; I use the scriptures. By the way were you trying to convince me that there was not enough air in the whale?

If you want to say that God miraculously preserved Jonah, fine. The text doesn't say that, but you can believe it. But the same God that can miraculously preserve a man in a whale, can also kill a man and then raise him back up again.

No argument here, if one has scripture. Whatever God did, He did it, miracle or no. I wonder if the folloeing were in hell fire:

Gen 45:27 And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived:

Jdg 15:19 But God clave an hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water thereout; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof Enhakkore, which is in Lehi unto this day.

1Ki 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.


-- Herb Evans

 

[James_Newman]

Well, if Jonah did not faint and did not die, what did Jonah do? The word faint is there and the word "die" is not, so do you want to go with what is in the scripture or what is not? -- Herb Evans



You tell me, since you are adept in using humanistic reasoning and facts. -- Herb Evans



Well, ah . . . no, but give the poor guy a chance to get into the whale after being thrown overboard in the water, before the whale saved him. This is a description by Jonah about his experience, not a Holy Spirit narrative. "Me" and "my" are the ones talking. -- Herb Evans

Yes, he sank like a stone to the bottom of the earth, and then the whale swallowed him. Fine.

That is exactly what I think and what I am saying

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Isa 38:17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.

In order to be a type of the Lord dying going to the heart of the earth and being resurrection, the type has to be the whale's belly. You are Killing Jonah, sending him to hell, and then resurrecting him in the whale's belly. If it does not fit, you must aquit.

Or the Lord being in the heart of the earth refers to His body in the tomb. As Jonahs body was three days in the whale, the Lord's body was three days in the earth.

I agree that God brought up HIS LIFE but that does not help you because his life had not died, and he therefore escaped corruption. If Jonah saw corruption, the Lord must see corruption. -- Herb Evans




Well, I forgot that you like to play Concordance Clarence. You are trying to take advantage of an English nuance here. Yes, Jonah was brought up, because his bosdy went to the bottom of the mountains. And it was his body that was brought up as well as his life that escaped corruption. Try another concordnce Clarence verse that is much more appropriate and relevant:

Psa 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. -- Herb Evans

Thats a good verse. But Jonah cried out of hell.

No, Jonah was not dead and in hell and then presumably resurrected to fulfill the type death, 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in the whale's belly. So much for pontification. If it does not fit, you must aquit. -- Herb Evans

Once again, if the Lords body was in the grave three days, there is nothing wrong with the type.

Oh? So, now Lazarus was in hell fire being in torment? Great theology, Jim, if you can get someone to swallow it. -- Herb Evans

No he was not being tormented in fire. Did I say he was being tormented in fire? But he was in hell. Hell means the underworld, Herb.

Lazarus went to a hell paradise where he was conforted and not tormented. I hope that you can grasp that there is more than one hell or pit in the earth. -- Herb Evans

Funny, you having to explain that to me.

I hate to tell you this, but that was the RICH MAN that was in torments in hell and not Lazarus, who was in the bosom of Abraham being comforted in another place.

It does Lazarus fainted; it does say that about Jonah. One thing for sure, Lazarus was not burning in hell. -- Herb Evans

You are really hung up on burning, Herb.

Well, if you do not know anything about hell and how the word is used in the O.T. I won't be able to convince you of anything. And if you can't read the Jonah's words, I vannot help you. He prayed OUT OF THE FISH'S BELLY, crying by reason of his affliction. If you cannot grasp that, what more can I do? -- Herb Evans

He prayed out of the fishes belly after he was revived in the fish. What did he pray in the fishes belly? Oh look, you even pasted it for me.

Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jonah 2:1, 2

How did he pray that he prayed and God heard him, if he was still in the fish? God heard him when he cried out of the belly of hell! And then, inside the fish, Jonah was able to praise God for hearing him and bringing his life back up from corruption.

I am not trying to convince you of that. That was just a bit of info that I came by. I don't try to convince anyone scientifically; I use the scriptures. By the way were you trying to convince me that there was not enough air in the whale?

Not at all, I think one of us should climb in there and see for ourselves, rather than taking someone else's word for it.

No argument here, if one has scripture. Whatever God did, He did it, miracle or no. -- Herb Evans

Well I'm glad we can agree on something.

 

[Herb Evans]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Evans
Well, if Jonah did not faint and did not die, what did Jonah do? The word faint is there and the word "die" is not, so do you want to go with what is in the scripture or what is not? -- Herb Evans

You tell me, since you are adept in using humanistic reasoning and facts. -- Herb Evans

Well, ah . . . no, but give the poor guy a chance to get into the whale after being thrown overboard in the water, before the whale saved him. This is a description by Jonah about his experience, not a Holy Spirit narrative. "Me" and "my" are the ones talking. -- Herb Evans



Yes, he sank like a stone to the bottom of the earth, and then the whale swallowed him. Fine.

Is that your final answer? It does not say one way or the other. Regardless he, Jonah, the body, was brought up with life in it and the whale was his safety after that, unless you want him to die again for lack of air. Now, that is a novel idea that you could use. Jonah dying twice and being resurrected twice. But then you would have to get him into hell the second time. Selah! Think of that!-- Herb Evans

Quote:

That is exactly what I think and what I am saying

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Isa 38:17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.

In order to be a type of the Lord dying going to the heart of the earth and being resurrection, the type has to be the whale's belly. You are Killing Jonah, sending him to hell, and then resurrecting him in the whale's belly. If it does not fit, you must aquit.

Or the Lord being in the heart of the earth refers to His body in the tomb. As Jonahs body was three days in the whale, the Lord's body was three days in the earth.

Wow, that is another novel idea, when Jesus told the thief that today they would be in paradise. Now, Jim, a sepulcre is hardly paradise. And, in case you don't know, sepulcres are on top of the earth. if that is not the case, then Peter went in to the heart of the earth to look for Jesus. Man, do you make up these pat answers as you go? -- Herb Evans

Quote:

I agree that God brought up HIS LIFE but that does not help you because his life had not died, and he therefore escaped corruption. If Jonah saw corruption, the Lord must see corruption. -- Herb Evans

Well, I forgot that you like to play Concordance Clarence. You are trying to take advantage of an English nuance here. Yes, Jonah was brought up, because his bosdy went to the bottom of the mountains. And it was his body that was brought up as well as his life that escaped corruption. Try another concordnce Clarence verse that is much more appropriate and relevant:

Psa 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. -- Herb Evans

Thats a good verse. But Jonah cried out of hell.

No, Jonah cried out of the belly of hell, and Jonah cried that from the belly of the whale, not from the water or from hell. You need to do some research on the words, hell, grave and pit. You must also realize that Hell means "HOLE" or "PIT" without any reference to fire, which is established by context. The angels went to hell with no fire mentioned. You must also understand that there are more than one "hell." -- herb Evans

Quote:

No, Jonah was not dead and in hell and then presumably resurrected to fulfill the type death, 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in the whale's belly. So much for pontification. If it does not fit, you must aquit. -- Herb Evans

Once again, if the Lords body was in the grave three days, there is nothing wrong with the type.

Well, there you go again, creating a circular argument. Jesus was in the heart of the earth, do you know what "heart" means? -- Herb Evans

Quote:

Oh? So, now Lazarus was in hell fire being in torment? Great theology, Jim, if you can get someone to swallow it. -- Herb Evans


No he was not being tormented in fire. Did I say he was being tormented in fire? But he was in hell. Hell means the underworld, Herb.

Well you implied it with your comparison of Lazarus and Jesus. So, now, your parallel is no good now. Exactly, and this is exactly where Jesus was -- in the underword or the "unseen" world. Ask any Greek and he will tell you that hell's roots is a composite of two words, "not seen." -- Herb Evans

Quote:

Lazarus went to a hell paradise where he was conforted and not tormented. I hope that you can grasp that there is more than one hell or pit in the earth. -- Herb Evans
Funny, you having to explain that to me.

Well, you are the one that comparing Jonah and Lazarus going to hell fire, didn't you? Or do you believe they both went to the place of comfort in the underworld, Jim, you are going to have to be more clear and specific. -- Herb Evans

Quote:

I hate to tell you this, but that was the RICH MAN that was in torments in hell and not Lazarus, who was in the bosom of Abraham being comforted in another place.

It does not say Lazarus fainted; it does say that about Jonah. One thing for sure, Lazarus was not burning in hell. -- Herb Evans

You are really hung up on burning, Herb.

No, you are the group that believe in Barbequed Baptist Toasties. I started this thread with the premise that Jonah did not go to a literal burning hell or even the underworld paradise, and I cannot seem to get you to say one way or the other so that we can understand your position. -- Hreb Evans

Quote:

Well, if you do not know anything about hell and how the word is used in the O.T. I won't be able to convince you of anything. And if you can't read the Jonah's words, I vannot help you. He prayed OUT OF THE FISH'S BELLY, crying by reason of his affliction. If you cannot grasp that, what more can I do? -- Herb Evans

He prayed out of the fishes belly after he was revived in the fish. What did he pray in the fishes belly? Oh look, you even pasted it for me.

He prayed "out" of the fish's belly. Why would Jonah pray that from the fish's belly, when his prayers in the water are already recorded in 2:4-9. Unless you call the water, the belly of hell. But you have a problem with the word "AND" that joins Jonah's preayer out of the fish's belly in verse 1 with his cry out of the belly of hell in verse 2. Do you really believe that Jonah prayed out of hell fire and had it answered. I guess there is some hope for those that are excluded from the kingdom and go to hell fire? --Herb Evans

Quote:
Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jonah 2:1, 2

How did he pray that he prayed and God heard him, if he was still in the fish? God heard him when he cried out of the belly of hell! And then, inside the fish, Jonah was able to praise God for hearing him and bringing his life back up from corruption.

But your time line is so different from Jonah's and you have that nasty problem of "AND" joining the two prayers as if they were one. Verse 1 telling us that Jonah prayer, and verse 2 telling us what he prayed. -- Herb Evans

Quote:

I am not trying to convince you of that. That was just a bit of info that I came by. I don't try to convince anyone scientifically; I use the scriptures. By the way were you trying to convince me that there was not enough air in the whale?

Not at all, I think one of us should climb in there and see for ourselves, rather than taking someone else's word for it.

Well, I did not exist in the 1880's or the early 1900's , so I would not be much help to you in that. -- Herb Evans

 

[Mike Berzins]

I am going to try and jump in here.

That is exactly what I think and what I am saying

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Isa 38:17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.

In order to be a type of the Lord dying going to the heart of the earth and being resurrection, the type has to be the whale's belly. You are Killing Jonah, sending him to hell, and then resurrecting him in the whale's belly. If it does not fit, you must aquit.

Or the Lord being in the heart of the earth refers to His body in the tomb. As Jonahs body was three days in the whale, the Lord's body was three days in the earth.


Wow, that is another novel idea, when Jesus told the thief that today they would be in paradise. Now, Jim, a sepulcre is hardly paradise. And, in case you don't know, sepulcres are on top of the earth. if that is not the case, then Peter went in to the heart of the earth to look for Jesus. Man, do you make up these pat answers as you go? -- Herb Evans

First, the types (or signs) in the bible do not have to be exact in every detail. Regardless of whether one believes Jonah was alive or dead in the whale, he was still vomitted up. Did hell or the sepulcre vomit up the Lord? Of course not.

Nevertheless, the heart of the earth means simply inside the earth. There is no reason to believe the sepulcre was necessarily some crypt on the top of the earth. According to Genesis 23, a sepulcre could be a cave (see v. 6 and 9). If this sepulcre were hewn out of exisiting rock, forming a cave, then the Lord was truly buried in the ground and not just in some man made crypt. Just because someone is buried in a hill, and someone else on the earth might be lower than him does not mean the person is not buried in the ground. And someone buried in a sepulcre, that is a cave, is not buried on the top of the earth, but in the ground. The heart of the earth, means the inside of the earth, this includes anywhere under the ground, not just the "deepest hell" in the middle. Peter did go into the heart of the earth, to look for the Lord.

John24:12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

Do you suppose he was stooping down because they made the opening very short, or because he was looking down a flight of stairs that led down under the earth. (The Lord was "buried", according to several scriptures, corrrect? not just placed in a mausoleum on the surface of the earth?)

The Lord's body was in heart of the earth (the tomb) three days and three nights. Just like Jonah's body was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights.

Ultimately, I don't think we are going to determine whether Jonah died or not just based on the example of the type and what the heart of the earth means. It appears that it can be read either way, when taken alone. We need to read the narrative in Jonah and that will then help us explain which explanation of the type is correct.

No, Jonah cried out of the belly of hell, and Jonah cried that from the belly of the whale, not from the water or from hell. You need to do some research on the words, hell, grave and pit. You must also realize that Hell means "HOLE" or "PIT" without any reference to fire, which is established by context. The angels went to hell with no fire mentioned. You must also understand that there are more than one "hell." -- herb Evans

It is granted that hell does not always mean the place where the rich man in Luke 16 went. It is determined by the context. Jonah was crying from the belly of hell. Hell could not have meant paradise here, because he was afflicted. It could not have meant the grave, unless you think Jonah died and his dead body was crying out. Wherever this hell is that Jonah is crying out from, he was afflicted there. I see two more possibilities. The place where the rich man was, or it is just a metaphor for his sufferings in the belly of the whale. If it is a metaphor, do you have other examples from the scriptures where anyone is afflicted in a metaphorical or figurative hell?

The most likely possibility, is that in the prayer Jonah was praying alive from the belly of the whale right before he was vomitted out onto dry land, in which he recounted what happened to him, and then declared how he would serve the Lord, Jonah was actually accurate in his description of what happened. I know it was just Jonah speaking here, and not the voice of the narrator of scripture (i.e the Holy Ghost), but on what basis do you doubt that what he said was accurate? When Jonah said the earth with her bars was about him forever, why don't you believe that he was speaking literally and accurately?

Well, if you do not know anything about hell and how the word is used in the O.T. I won't be able to convince you of anything. And if you can't read the Jonah's words, I vannot help you. He prayed OUT OF THE FISH'S BELLY, crying by reason of his affliction. If you cannot grasp that, what more can I do? -- Herb Evans

He prayed out of the fishes belly after he was revived in the fish. What did he pray in the fishes belly? Oh look, you even pasted it for me.

He prayed "out" of the fish's belly. Why would Jonah pray that from the fish's belly, when his prayers in the water are already recorded in 2:4-9. Unless you call the water, the belly of hell. But you have a problem with the word "AND" that joins Jonah's preayer out of the fish's belly in verse 1 with his cry out of the belly of hell in verse 2. Do you really believe that Jonah prayed out of hell fire and had it answered. I guess there is some hope for those that are excluded from the kingdom and go to hell fire? --Herb Evans

How did he pray that he prayed and God heard him, if he was still in the fish? God heard him when he cried out of the belly of hell! And then, inside the fish, Jonah was able to praise God for hearing him and bringing his life back up from corruption.

Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jonah 2:1, 2

But your time line is so different from Jonah's and you have that nasty problem of "AND" joining the two prayers as if they were one. Verse 1 telling us that Jonah prayer, and verse 2 telling us what he prayed. -- Herb Evans

I tried to explain this chronology on the other thread; I don't think I have yet explained it in a clear enough way that you understand what we are saying. So I will try again. Verse 1 does tell us that Jonah prayed. Verse 2 does tell us what he prayed in verse 1. We agree. Jonah is praying from the whale's belly. Verses 2-9 is what Jonah said while he was alive in the whale's belly. He says from the belly of the whale, 'I cried..." This is past tense. Jonah begins his prayer by describing how he had previously prayed to God from the belly of hell, and was heard (v2). Jonah, still praying to God from the whale's belly, starts out with the word "for" and then goes on back further in the past to describe what happened to him in the water that caused him to end up in the belly of hell. (v3-6a). These verses (3-6a) are Jonah, alive in the belly of the whale, praying to God and relating how he died in the sea. Jonah, (beginning with the word "yet" (v6b)) then tells us that the Lord brought him back to life.

Now it is clear that the Lord "heard" Jonah's prayer out of hell (v1-2). This does not neccesarily mean that God responded to it by bringing Jonah out of hell. If you don't think that that prayer from hell could possibly be effectual in getting him out, verse 7 can deal with that. Verse 7 is a dying prayer of Jonah, that went up into the Lord's temple. It can be this prayer that the Lord answered, made while Jonah was still alive and in the sea (but being related to us by Jonah from the fish's belly).

To continue the chronology, in v7, Jonah jumps back to his dying words that were heard by the Lord, and then contrasts those that observe lying vanities with his decision to follow the Lord (v8-9). In v10, Jonah, who has been alive since v1 and praying to the Lord and describing what happened to him over the past three days, is vomitted out upon the dry land.

Back to one final point from your original article, in regards to your statement that Jonah would have been called Jonah's body, if he were dead. There is no force to this argument, for the following reason: Notice John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

The Lord said Lazarus was sleeping.

Then in v 14 it reads at follows: John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus referred to the part of Lazarus that was "sleeping" as Lazarus. The part of Lazarus that was sleeping was not his soul, it was his body.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

When one dies, the body sleeps, not the soul. So Jesus called the body of Lazarus, "Lazarus".

So Jonah's dead body, according to the precedent of our Lord, can be referred to as Jonah.

 

[Herb Evans]

Part 1 Answer to Berzen

First, the types (or signs) in the bible do not have to be exact in every detail. Regardless of whether one believes Jonah was alive or dead in the whale, he was still vomitted up. Did hell or the sepulcre vomit up the Lord? Of course not. – Mike Berzen

You are correct here that types do not have to be exact but they sometimes are. Still, the Jonah and the whale are the type and the heart of the earth and the Lord are the anti-type or the reality. The time element is the same for the type and the antitype. – Herb Evans

Nevertheless, the heart of the earth means simply inside the earth. There is no reason to believe the sepulcre was necessarily some crypt on the top of the earth. According to Genesis 23, a sepulcre could be a cave (see v. 6 and 9). If this sepulcre were hewn out of exisiting rock, forming a cave, then the Lord was truly buried in the ground and not just in some man made crypt. Just because someone is buried in a hill, and someone else on the earth might be lower than him does not mean the person is not buried in the ground. And someone buried in a sepulcre, that is a cave, is not buried on the top of the earth, but in the ground. The heart of the earth, means the inside of the earth, this includes anywhere under the ground, not just the "deepest hell" in the middle. Peter did go into the heart of the earth, to look for the Lord. – Mike Berzen

There is every reason to believe that the heart of the earth means the center or middle of the earth, notwithstanding caves, Mausoleums, and sepulchers. Or words do not mean anything.

Exo 15:8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

H3820 לבle^blabe

A form of H3824; the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything: - + care for, comfortably, consent, X considered, courag [-eous], friend [-ly], ([broken-], [hard-], [merry-], [stiff-], [stout-], double) heart ([-ed]), X heed, X I, kindly, midst, mind (-ed), X regard ([-ed)], X themselves, X unawares, understanding, X well, willingly, wisdom.

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

G2588 καρδίαkardiakar-dee'-ah
Prolonged from a primary κάρkar (Latin cor, “heart”); the heart, that is, (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle: - (+ broken-) heart (-ed).

John24:12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

Do you suppose he was stooping down because they made the opening very short, or because he was looking down a flight of stairs that led down under the earth. (The Lord was "buried", according to several scriptures, corrrect? not just placed in a mausoleum on the surface of the earth?) – Mike Berzen

I can’t believe that you would stretch and strain so to make this point. Jesus was laid in Joseph’s new TOMB, HEWN out in the ROCK Matt. 27:60. The women were plainning on coming back to anoint the body; were they planning on digging Jesus up? He no doubt stooped down because it was dark. My point, despite your ridiculous analogy, was that Jesus body was not in the heart of the earth. His Soul/Spirit was in the heart of the earth. – Herb Evans

The Lord's body was in heart of the earth (the tomb) three days and three nights. Just like Jonah's body was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights. – Mike Berzen

NOT! Where was Jesus soul/Spirit? Still in the body? In heaven? Where? – Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Part 2 Answer to Berzen

Ultimately, I don't think we are going to determine whether Jonah died or not just based on the example of the type and what the heart of the earth means. It appears that it can be read either way, when taken alone. We need to read the narrative in Jonah and that will then help us explain which explanation of the type is correct. – Mike Berzen

You might not be able to determine this. But I have established it. The type is accurate? You don’t believe that? – Herb Evans


It is granted that hell does not always mean the place where the rich man in Luke 16 went. It is determined by the context. Jonah was crying from the belly of hell. Hell could not have meant paradise here, because he was afflicted. – Mike Berzen

That is true, and I do not subscribe to the “Jonah went to paradise” theory. – Herb Evans

It could not have meant the grave, unless you think Jonah died and his dead body was crying out. – Mike Berzen

This is also true. Jonah had to be alive to cry out. Dead bodies do not cry out. – Herb Evans

Wherever this hell is that Jonah is crying out from, he was afflicted there. I see two more possibilities. The place where the rich man was, . . . Mike Berzen

Not unless hell has a belly. Do you have another place where hell has a belly? – Herb Evans

. . . or it is just a metaphor for his sufferings in the belly of the whale. –Mike Berzen

Yes, a descriptive metaphor uttered by Jonah and not the narrative description. – Herb Evans

If it is a metaphor, do you have other examples from the scriptures where anyone is afflicted in a metaphorical or figurative hell? – Mike Berzen

That is not the question. Do you have other passages from scriptures of the actual “belly” of hell? I posit this as Jonah’s description of Jonah’s whale belly sufferings, in a figurative way, as you suggested as a possibility above and to which I agreed. – Herb Evans

Job 20:15 He hath swallowed down riches, and he shall vomit them up again: God shall cast them out of his belly.

Jon 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I see no reason for seeing the “belly” here as anything but a “whale belly.” It is consistent with the narrative of both of Jonah and Matthew. – Herb Evans

The most likely possibility, is that in the prayer Jonah was praying alive from the belly of the whale right before he was vomitted out onto dry land, in which he recounted what happened to him, and then declared how he would serve the Lord, Jonah was actually accurate in his description of what happened. – Mike Berzen

This is nothing but conjecture, a timeline interpolation, and a desire to toast Jonah in hell to support some other beliefs that you have. Jonah’s words and prayers were accurate, since they were his description of what happened from 2:3 to 2:9 from the casting into the sea 2:3 to the acknowledgement that salvation is of the Lord 2:10. The Lord’s narrative is also accurate from 1:17 to 2:2 of Jonah praying from the Whale’s belly and also 2:10, when Jonah is vomited on the dry land. The conjunction “AND” joins 2:1 and 2:2; it is the same belly and the same prayer. – Herb Evans

I know it was just Jonah speaking here, and not the voice of the narrator of scripture (i.e the Holy Ghost), but on what basis do you doubt that what he said was accurate? –Mike Berzen

I don’t doubt that what Jonah said was accurate. On what basis do you doubt what the narrative said was accurate? And on what basis do you deny that the reference to “belly” and the “whale’s belly” is accurate? Does “belly” mean “belly” or do we look for something else or do you think “belly” is figurative here? – Herb Evans

When Jonah said the earth with her bars was about him forever, why don't you believe that he was speaking literally and accurately? –Mike Berzen

Well, Jonah was not accurate here, because it was not “FOR EVER!” This was Jonah’s perception and expectation of things as he anticipated his fate. Does the earth have bars that can be viewed from the water, or did Jonah perceive the mountains around him as bars? Was the Lord accurate in His discourse to Job?– Herb Evans

Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors . . . Job 38:8 - 10

--Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Part 3 Answer to Berzen

Well, if you do not know anything about hell and how the word is used in the O.T. I won't be able to convince you of anything. And if you can't read the Jonah's words, I cannot help you. He prayed OUT OF THE FISH'S BELLY, crying by reason of his affliction. If you cannot grasp that, what more can I do? -- Herb Evans

He prayed out of the fishes belly after he was revived in the fish. What did he pray in the fishes belly? Oh look, you even pasted it for me. – Jim Newman

He prayed "out" of the fish's belly. Why would Jonah pray that from the fish's belly, when his prayers in the water are already recorded in 2:4-9? Unless you call the water, the belly of hell. But you have a problem with the word "AND" that joins Jonah's prayer out of the fish's belly in verse 1 with his cry out of the belly of hell in verse 2. Do you really believe that Jonah prayed out of hell fire and had it answered? I guess there is some hope for those that are excluded from the kingdom and go to hell fire? --Herb Evans

How did he pray that he prayed and God heard him, if he was still in the fish? God heard him when he cried out of the belly of hell! And then, inside the fish, Jonah was able to praise God for hearing him and bringing his life back up from corruption.

Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jonah 2:1, 2 -- Jim Newman

But your time line is so different from Jonah's and you have that nasty problem of "AND" joining the two prayers as if they were one. Verse 1 telling us that Jonah prayer, and verse 2 telling us what he prayed. -- Herb Evans

I tried to explain this chronology on the other thread; I don't think I have yet explained it in a clear enough way that you understand what we are saying.

No, but I understood the Bible. And I understand that this is a necessary component of both of your other beliefs, so strain away. – Herb Evans

So I will try again. Verse 1 does tell us that Jonah prayed. Verse 2 does tell us what he prayed in verse 1. We agree.

I don’t think we do, but go ahead. – Herb Evans

Jonah is praying from the whale's belly. Verses 2-9 is what Jonah said while he was alive in the whale's belly.

I knew it! No! Verse 2 belongs with verse one and is joined by an “AND.” Verse 3-9 is Jonah’s account of Jonah’s ordeal in the deep and what he prayed in the water after being cast into the deep. – Herb Evans

He says from the belly of the whale, 'I cried..." This is past tense.

Well, the whole narrative in verse one and two are in the past tense, “Jonah prayed (past tense) . . . And said I cried (past tense) . . . and he heard me (past tense) and cried I (past tense). You aren’t going to try to use that flimsy tense point to prove a whole doctrine, are you? – Herb Evans

Jonah begins his prayer by describing how he had previously prayed to God from the belly of hell, and was heard (v2).

No, we don’t agree. In verses 3 to 9 Jonah describes his prayer in the sea. If He had said the belly of hell after verse 3’s account of his watery ordeal and had said it within his recorded prayer in the sea, you would have a point, but Jonah did not. His soul did not die in the sea or in the whale or go to hell fire; Jonah fainted in the water (2:7). If you do not like the word “FAINTED,” then find the word “die” or “died” in the account. – Herb Evans

Jonah, still praying to God from the whale's belly, starts out with the word "for" and then goes on back further in the past to describe what happened to him in the water that caused him to end up in the belly of hell. (v3-6a). These verses (3-6a) are Jonah, alive in the belly of the whale, praying to God and relating how he died in the sea. Jonah, (beginning with the word "yet" (v6b)) then tells us that the Lord brought him back to life. – Mike Berzen

Actually, Jonah is still alive and praying from the whale’s belly and recounting the sea ordeal from 2:3 to 9 and his prayers in the deep 2:4 and 2:9. No doubt, Jonah had these scriptures in mind.

. . my SOUL is full of troubles: and my LIFE draweth NIGH unto the GRAVE. I am counted with them that GO DOWN INTO the PIT: I am AS a man that hath no strength: Free AMONG the DEAD, LIKE the SLAIN that lie IN THE GRAVE . . . Thou hast laid me in the LOWEST PIT, in darkness, in the DEEPS. -- Psalm 88:3-7

When the WAVES of death COMPASSED me, the FLOODS of ungodly men made me afraid; the SORROWS OF HELL COMPASSED ME about; the snares of DEATH prevented [old word for anticipated] me; In my DISTRESS I called upon the LORD; and CRIED to my God: and he DID HEAR my voice OUT OF HIS TEMPLE [see Jonah 2:4] and my cry did enter his ears. -- 2 Sam 22:6 [See also Psalm 18:4, 5 for the same record]

We hardly think that the Samuel or the Psalmist went to hell in these passages. – Herb Evans

Jonah 2:4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will lookagain toward thy holy temple.

Jonah 2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee,into thine holy temple.

 

[Herb Evans]

Part 4 Answer to Berzen

Jonah recounts his experiences and first prayer from the DEEP in the framework of his second prayer from the whale’s belly. He recounts his former affliction and subsequent cry to the Lord, who heard him. This cry was not from the whale’s belly but from the “belly of hell,” which is explained throughout this article, including the above passages. –Mike Berzen

No, in fact verse 2:3 is the beginning of the account when Jonah was first tossed into the midst of the sea. Jonah’s subsequent first prayer was from the deep 2:4 not hell; nothing in Jonah’s first prayer remotely suggests hell from 2:3 to 2:9. And 2:10 is the end of the account, narrated by the Lord after hearing Jonah quote Psalm 3:8. – Herb Evans

Now it is clear that the Lord "heard" Jonah's prayer out of hell (v1-2).

Sorry, doesn’t say that. You have messaged the “belly of hell” again and removed belly and its cross reference. It refers to the Whale’s belly in verse one. Belly means bell! – Herb Evans

This does not neccesarily mean that God responded to it by bringing Jonah out of hell. If you don't think that that prayer from hell could possibly be effectual in getting him out, verse 7 can deal with that. Verse 7 is a dying prayer of Jonah, that went up into the Lord's temple. It can be this prayer that the Lord answered, made while Jonah was still alive and in the sea (but being related to us by Jonah from the fish's belly). – Mike Berzen

The Lord responded to Jonah’s prayer and affliction in the whale’s belly, where Jonah was, not hell fire. The Lord heard Jonah’s first prayer from the deep and responded by saving Jonah from the water by using a whale. Jonah’s life was brought up from the “for ever” corruption (2.8). Jonah does not say how he got into the whale belly, or when, or even that he was in the whale’s belly, for he probably did not even know where it was, hence his reference to hell. The Lord told us, however. – Herb Evans

To continue the chronology, in v7, Jonah jumps back to his dying words that were heard by the Lord, and then contrasts those that observe lying vanities with his decision to follow the Lord (v8-9).

In v10, Jonah, who has been alive since v1 and praying to the Lord and describing what happened to him over the past three days, is vomitted out upon the dry land. – Mike Berzen

No, Jonah never described what happened to him over three days. Jonah described what happened to him prior to the 3 days. God described the 3 days. It is doubtful that Jonah even knew the time, since he did not have a water proof watch. – Herb Evans

Back to one final point from your original article, in regards to your statement that Jonah would have been called Jonah's body, if he were dead. There is no force to this argument, for the following reason: Notice John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

The Lord said Lazarus was sleeping.

Then in v 14 it reads at follows: John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. Jesus referred to the part of Lazarus that was "sleeping" as Lazarus. The part of Lazarus that was sleeping was not his soul, it was his body.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

When one dies, the body sleeps, not the soul. So Jesus called the body of Lazarus, "Lazarus".

So Jonah's dead body, according to the precedent of our Lord, can be referred to as Jonah.

Well, there is no force to your “sleeping” argument. It does not say that Jonah was sleeping, nor does it say that Jonah was dead. Are you saying that a raising of the dead and a resurrection of the dead are the same thing? Or are you saying that Lazarus was in hell fire? – Herb Evans

 

[James_Newman]

I tried to explain this chronology on the other thread; I don't think I have yet explained it in a clear enough way that you understand what we are saying.

No, but I understood the Bible. And I understand that this is a necessary component of both of your other beliefs, so strain away. – Herb Evans

So I will try again. Verse 1 does tell us that Jonah prayed. Verse 2 does tell us what he prayed in verse 1. We agree.

I don’t think we do, but go ahead. – Herb Evans

Jonah is praying from the whale's belly. Verses 2-9 is what Jonah said while he was alive in the whale's belly.

I knew it! No! Verse 2 belongs with verse one and is joined by an “AND.” Verse 3-9 is Jonah’s account of Jonah’s ordeal in the deep and what he prayed in the water after being cast into the deep. – Herb Evans

You knew it? Brother, I have a GED just like you, but you are giving GED's a bad name. Verse 3-9 goes right along with verse 2, it is his prayer that he prayed from the belly of the whale. So what if his prayer is giving account of what happened to him? Verse 1 speaks of Jonah in the third person. Verse 2 - 9, Jonah is speaking of himself in the first person. Then in verse 10, it is third person again. Everything between 'And said,' and 'And the LORD spoke unto the fish' is what Jonah said inside the belly of the whale. He is speaking to God, not the camera.