Jonathan Edwards on the Destruction of the Wicked

Monergist · Jun 15, 2005

I see this topic coming up quite a bit here. Here's some food for thought:

At the day of judgment, the saints in glory at Christ's right hand, will see the wicked at the left hand in their amazement and horror, will hear the judge pronounce sentence upon them, saying, " Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels;" and will see them go away into everlasting punishment. But the Scripture seems to hold forth to us, that the saints will not only see the misery of the wicked at the day of judgment, but the forementioned texts imply, that the state of the damned in hell will be in the view of the heavenly inhabitants; that the two worlds of happiness and misery will be in view of each other. Though we know not by what means, nor after what manner, it will be; yet the Scriptures certainly lead us to think, that they will some way or other have a direct and immediate apprehension of each other's state. The saints in glory will see how the damned are tormented; they will see God's threatenings fulfilled, and his wrath executed upon them.

When they shall see it, it will be no occasion of grief to them. The miseries of the damned in hell will be inconceivably great. When they shall come to bear the wrath of the Almighty poured out upon them without mixture, and executed upon them without pity or restraint, or any mitigation; it will doubtless cause anguish, and horror, and amazement vastly beyond all the sufferings and torments that ever any man endured in this world; yea, beyond all extent of our words or thoughts. For God in executing wrath upon ungodly men will act like an Almighty God. The Scripture calls this wrath, God's and the fierceness of his wrath; and we are told that this is to show God's wrath, and to make his power known; or to make known how dreadful his wrath is, and how great his power.

The saints in glory will see this, and be far more sensible of it than now we can possibly be. They will be far more sensible how dreadful the wrath of God is, and will better understand how terrible the sufferings of the damned are; yet this will be no occasion of grief to them. They will not be sorry for the damned; it will cause no uneasiness or dissatisfaction to them; but on the contrary, when they have this sight, it will excite them to joyful praises.-These two things are evidences of it:

1. That the seeing of the wrath of God executed upon the damned, should cause grief in the saints in glory, is inconsistent with that state of perfect happiness in which they are. There can no such thing as grief enter, to be an alloy to the happiness and joy of that world of blessedness. Grief is an utter stranger in that world. God hath promised that he will wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall he no more sorrow. Rev. 20:4, and chap. 7:17.

2. The saints in heaven possess all things as their own, and therefore all things contribute to their joy and happiness. The Scriptures teach that the saints in glory inherit all things. This God said in John's hearing, when he had the vision of the New Jerusalem, Rev. 21:7. And the Scriptures teach us to understand this absolutely of all the works of creation and providence. 1, Cor. 3:21, 22, "All things are yours, whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours. Here the apostle teaches, that all things in the world to come, or in the future and eternal world, are the saints; not only life, but death; men, and angels, and devils, heaven and hell, are theirs, to contribute to their joy and happiness. Therefore the damned and their misery, their sufferings and the wrath of God poured out upon them, will be an occasion of joy to them. If there were any thing whatsoever that did not contribute to their joy, but caused grief, then there would be something which would not be theirs.

That the torments of the damned are no matter of grief, but of joy, to the inhabitants of heaven, is very clearly expressed in several passages of this book of Revelation; particularly by chap. 16:57, and chap. 19 at the beginning.
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From THE END OF THE WICKED CONTEMPLATED BY THE RIGHTEOUS:

rc · Jun 15, 2005

MOnergist,

I beat you to the punch.... Did you see my post on the Dirty thread?

They don't want to the proper theology.... they just want to see man as the center of their universe... even in heaven they are man centered!

BobRyan · Jun 15, 2005

JE
At the day of judgment, the saints in glory at Christ's right hand, will see the wicked at the left hand in their amazement and horror, will hear the judge pronounce sentence upon them, saying, " Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels;" and will see them go away into everlasting punishment. But the Scripture seems to hold forth to us, that the saints will not only see the misery of the wicked at the day of judgment, but the forementioned texts imply, that the state of the damned in hell will be in the view of the heavenly inhabitants; that the two worlds of happiness and misery will be in view of each other. Though we know not by what means, nor after what manner, it will be; yet the Scriptures certainly lead us to think, that they will some way or other have a direct and immediate apprehension of each other's state. The saints in glory will see how the damned are tormented; they will see God's threatenings fulfilled, and his wrath executed upon them.
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Hardsheller has been pounding me for insisting that Rev 14:10 SHOWS this to be the case given that the SAINTS are ever WITH CHRIST and the wicked are tormented "IN THE PRESENCE Of CHRIST".

Odd that Edwards seem to get this part right - about the saints SEEING the torment of the wicked!!

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jun 15, 2005

Hence the CFS --

================================

5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:

“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about the saved/electin the end)

We see Calvinists blessing the fact that He chose You – AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.

So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.
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<You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?>

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!

Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!

All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.
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In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jun 15, 2005

THE big problem with that scenario "of course" is that a calvinist god would not even allow one MOMENT of love care and concern for one's lost little girl as the parent SEEs her being tormented in the flames!

1 Cor 13 predictions about LOVE NOT being the thing that ENDS in heaven -- not withstanding.

AFter all in every system you become "MORE" like the god you worship when you get to heaven - not LESS!

In Christ,

Bob

whetstone · Jun 15, 2005

The Arminian God is a weeping mess of helplessness who pleads with sinners and finally (grudgingly) sends them to an eternity in hell because they rejected Christ. There is no triumph over sin here- no victory, and no joy. It is only sadness because these poor damned souls did not make the right choice. What foolishness Arminianism is.

BobRyan · Jun 15, 2005

Yeah and what about that Bible saying that SAME THING?? We should do a little cut-ang-paste all-for-Calvinism to put a stop to that nonsense!

When God weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”
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Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23
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37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
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God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

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God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.
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ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

Hosea 11:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.
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Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"
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[/QUOTE]As pointed out - 1Cor 13 states clearly that it is LOVE that DOES NOT end!

As pointed out - we become MORE Like that "weeping" caring God in whom "ALL HIS COMPASSIONS" are stirred up over the case of the wicked for HE HAS NO PLEASURE in their death.

Which is why in Rev 21 it is only AFTER the judgment of the wicked, and AFTER the lake of fire, and AFTER the new Earth is created that we see the promise of EVERY TEAR wiped away!!

What a great BIBLE!!

How sad that it is not wanted for ALL that it says in those cut-and-paste methods of Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

rc · Jun 15, 2005

Bob,
reconcile "God HATES the wicked"....

Crying Hallelujah is Rev 19 is it not?
Fighting against scripture to "fit" your humanistic philosphy again....oh the preciousness of the goodness of man... hail him!

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!
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Romans 9:15-16 "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,(1 )but on God, who has mercy.
Still fighting for man huh Bob? ...

Monergist · Jun 15, 2005

Originally posted by rc:
MOnergist,

I beat you to the punch.... Did you see my post on the Dirty thread?

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I missed it somehow. That's a great quote from Edwards too.

BobRyan · Jun 15, 2005

Calvinism"

"So it is GOD who DOES NOT have Mercy on those He chooses NOT to have mercy on and who DOES NOT have compassion on those that He chooses NOT to HAVE compassion upon"
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But in the Bible it is to BOTH the wicked and the righteous that God shows kindness love, patience and long suffering ---

For in the BIBLE

Romans 9:15-16 "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,(1 )but on God, who has mercy"

With the result that God HAS GREAT patience EVEN on those "Vessels of wrath" for HE CONVICTS THE WORLD as the Savior of the WORLD who is the atoning sacirifice for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD. God CALLING ALL MANKIND EVERYWHERE to repentance!! -- Yes "even" the vessels of wrath!!

That was pretty easy.

Next.

In Christ,

Bob

rc · Jun 15, 2005

God CALLING ALL MANKIND EVERYWHERE to repentance!! -- Yes "even" the vessels of wrath!!

What's your point? That God calls everyone? ... Tell us something we don't know! The vessels of wrath are APPOINTED for wrath... yes they are called, that's the point! They will not EVER repent though, because of the fact.

THAT was easy!

Wes Outwest · Jun 15, 2005

Monergist,
Your OP quote, is by one who hasn't got a clue about what the saints in Heaven will see, do, feel, or experience. And if you believe that claptrap, you don't either!

Monergist · Jun 15, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Monergist,
Your OP quote, is by one who hasn't got a clue about what the saints in Heaven will see, do, feel, or experience. And if you believe that claptrap, you don't either!
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You want to put some substance to that by pointing out where Edwards is wrong?

Scott J · Jun 15, 2005

Are you serious Monergist? You should just accept what Wes says as if it were inspired.

Seriously though Wes, do you deem yourself qualified to dismiss one of the great English speaking preacher/evangelists ever just because you don't like what he says?

Could it be that someone who studied the scripture as intently as Edwards did have a clue and someone who so readily dismisses scripture's authority is the one without a clue?

Wes Outwest · Jun 15, 2005

Originally posted by Monergist:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Monergist,
Your OP quote, is by one who hasn't got a clue about what the saints in Heaven will see, do, feel, or experience. And if you believe that claptrap, you don't either!
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You want to put some substance to that by pointing out where Edwards is wrong? [/QUOTE]

the saints in glory at Christ's right hand, will see the wicked at the left hand in their amazement and horror, will hear the judge pronounce sentence upon them, saying, " Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels;" and will see them go away into everlasting punishment. But the Scripture seems to hold forth to us, that the saints will not only see the misery of the wicked at the day of judgment, but the forementioned texts imply, that the state of the damned in hell will be in the view of the heavenly inhabitants; that the two worlds of happiness and misery will be in view of each other.
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After the Judgement, this heaven and earth shall pass away! The lake of fire is part of "this heaven and earth" because evil will exist no more in the New Heaven and New earth. No one will ever again be cast into a lake of fire because it too will not exist...for all of eternity. No one will say to another, "lets go down to the lake and watch the devil and demons and unbelievers squirm in torment! There will be no more lake of fire, else it would be described as part of the New Heaven and Earth. Evil would be identified as ingredient of eternal life.

Think about it! How would the new be different than the old if all of that still existed?

rc · Jun 16, 2005

I'm sorry Wes,
But for you to correct Edwards might be the most prideful and ignorant things I've EVER heard. Did you graduate Yale at 14? Masters at 17? Didn't think so. Learn from the teachers God has gifted. By mocking and rejecting their teachings leaves you in your present state, prideful and uneducated.

BobRyan · Jun 16, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:

jEdwards -
the saints in glory at Christ's right hand, will see the wicked at the left hand in their amazement and horror, will hear the judge pronounce sentence upon them, saying, " Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels;" and will see them go away into everlasting punishment. But the Scripture seems to hold forth to us, that the saints will not only see the misery of the wicked at the day of judgment, but the forementioned texts imply, that the state of the damned in hell will be in the view of the heavenly inhabitants;
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Edwards is right about what they see BECAUSE as Rev 14:10 points out - this all happens IN THE PRESENCE of the LAMB AND of the Holy Angels -- AND THE SAINTS are EVER WITH the LAMB!!

Wes said --
After the Judgement, this heaven and earth shall pass away! The lake of fire is part of "this heaven and earth" because evil will exist no more in the New Heaven and New earth. No one will ever again be cast into a lake of fire because it too will not exist...for all of eternity. No one will say to another, "lets go down to the lake and watch the devil and demons and unbelievers squirm in torment! There will be no more lake of fire, else it would be described as part of the New Heaven and Earth. Evil would be identified as ingredient of eternal life.
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That is also true Wes. However the snippet quoted from Edwards above does not directly contradict what you have said. Indeed if all that Edwards is saying took place at the judgment and Lake of Fire "event" prior to the New Earth being created - it would still fit your statements.

His statements about their getting a lot of chuckles out of seeing the lost (ALL the lost which would INCLUDE precious loved ones) suffering the torments of the flames - leaves something to be desired.

Even Hardsheller can not go along with that idea fromo Edwards -- and his is a all-for-Calvinism style defense!

IN Christ,

Bob
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rc · Jun 17, 2005

His statements about their getting a lot of chuckles out of seeing the lost

YOU are in Sin Bob....
Jonathan Edwards, never said we would be chuckling.... you LIE... and you grossly misunderstand about EVERYTHING he says... It would help if you READ everything He wrote on the subject and weigh it carefully before commenting on it.

BobRyan · Jun 17, 2005

Your obligatory ranting is not open to response - but the quote from Edwards is "instructive".

Edwards --
And if we understand the text to have respect only to a temporal execution of God's wrath on his enemies, that will not alter the case. The thing they are called upon to rejoice at, is the execution of God's wrath upon his and their enemies. And if it be matter of rejoicing to them to see justice executed in part upon them, or to see the beginning of the execution of it in this world; for the same reason will they rejoice with greater joy, in beholding it fully executed. For the thing here mentioned as the foundation of their joy, is the execution of just vengeance: Rejoice, for God hath avenged you on her.
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Here then is the wonderful JOY at seeing the torment of the lost - that we find in Edward's quote.

The very thing RC claims "does not exist"!!

How wonderful that Calvinism seem to have no fact at all to hang its hat on in this particular point!!

Hence the obligatory ranting in RC's post above. (Typical of any argument that has run out of evidence, reason and logic to sustain it).

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jun 17, 2005

Correction - I should have included REJOICING to that quote on JOY!!

Edwards said --
It is not only the sight of God's wrath executed on those wicked men who are of the antichristian church, which will be occasion of rejoicing to the saints in glory; but also the sight of the destruction of all God's enemies: whether they have been the followers of antichrist or not, that alters not the case, if they have been the enemies of God, and of Jesus Christ. All wicked men will at last be destroyed together, as being united in the same cause and interest, as being all of Satan's army. They will all stand together at the day of judgment, as being all of the same company.
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Whew!! What a lot of thrilling JOY and REJOICING! Such a mild term like "Chuckle" hardly BEGINS to touch the point of JOY and REJOICING!! Good thing RC insists we give it the full throttle REJOICING and JOY - and not leave anyone in doubt that it might just be mild demure chuckle/smile/approval.

In Christ,

Bob

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