Just for honest Calvinist Please

[Shortandy]

Calvinism/Reformed Theology is something of great interest to me. I have been reading scripture, books on both sides of the fence and I have even attended conferences on the topic. I must admitt that it is difficult for me to admitt that I am reformed because that seems to be a dirty word in many circles. Some pastors will even refuse to associate with a person who takes this theological position.

In many of things I have heard and read many claim to be 4 point calvinist. At one conference DR. Davind Allan from SWTBS made huge claims that many of the big name Calvinsist from old where really only 4-pointers. The point they don't support is Limited Atonment.

My question is this: Is it possible to only be a 4 pointer? Wouldn't ones belief in Total Depravity (the T in TULIP) demand that one believe in the "L"?

If man is totally incapable of choosing to be saved then wouldn't it stand to reasont that it is God doing the choosing?

I am not trying to pick a fight here. I simply want to hear from you guys.

Thanks!!

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I have heard it said that they cannot stand independantly from one another. They all stand or it all falls.

I am not sure of the reasoning or logic there.

I will say, don't pay attention to how folks view someone who is called a Calvinist or Reformed. We must not have a single care for such things if we are going to continue in the truth.

Being that the so-called calvinist doctrines are biblical truths, to be despised for them is a great honor.

 

[Shortandy]

I have heard it said that they cannot stand independantly from one another. They all stand or it all falls.

I am not sure of the reasoning or logic there.

I will say, don't pay attention to how folks view someone who is called a Calvinist or Reformed. We must not have a single care for such things if we are going to continue in the truth.

Being that the so-called calvinist doctrines are biblical truths, to be despised for them is a great honor.

Thanks for your words but you didn't anwer the question really. There has to be a level of cohesion? Is it possible to believe in T and not L? I do not understand how this could be possible.

 

[Jarthur001]

Calvinism/Reformed Theology is something of great interest to me. I have been reading scripture, books on both sides of the fence and I have even attended conferences on the topic. I must admitt that it is difficult for me to admitt that I am reformed because that seems to be a dirty word in many circles. Some pastors will even refuse to associate with a person who takes this theological position.

In many of things I have heard and read many claim to be 4 point calvinist. At one conference DR. Davind Allan from SWTBS made huge claims that many of the big name Calvinsist from old where really only 4-pointers. The point they don't support is Limited Atonment.

My question is this: Is it possible to only be a 4 pointer? Wouldn't ones belief in Total Depravity (the T in TULIP) demand that one believe in the "L"?

If man is totally incapable of choosing to be saved then wouldn't it stand to reasont that it is God doing the choosing?

I am not trying to pick a fight here. I simply want to hear from you guys.

Thanks!!

It's possible...yes indeed. But why would you want to be wrong on one part...right?

 

[swaimj]

Shortandy,
A good defense of the 4-point position can be found here: http://www.centralseminary.edu/publications/Nick/Nick001.htm

Enjoy!

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Thanks for your words but you didn't anwer the question really. There has to be a level of cohesion? Is it possible to believe in T and not L? I do not understand how this could be possible.

Well, I just wanted to comment on one part of your thread. Since I don't know their argument for all or none, I can't answer the question.

 

[Shortandy]

Well, I just wanted to comment on one part of your thread. Since I don't know their argument for all or none, I can't answer the question.

It is a general question. No need to respond to anyone else. Just respond to me but explain. A yes or no is not what I am seeking.

How can you deny The "L" if you hold to the "T"?

 

[Pastor David]

It is a general question. No need to respond to anyone else. Just respond to me but explain. A yes or no is not what I am seeking.

How can you deny The "L" if you hold to the "T"?

The question really isn't do these particular doctrines fit together - rather I believe we should ask if total depravity and limited atonement are Scriptural doctrines. If we can conclude that they are (as I do) then they will naturally fit in together with the rest of God's revelation.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

It is a general question. No need to respond to anyone else. Just respond to me but explain. A yes or no is not what I am seeking.

How can you deny The "L" if you hold to the "T"?

I will remember in the future that I can't make a general comment or exhortation in your threads.

 

[webdog]

Shortandy, I'm not a calvinist, but was once in your shoes. I believe any systematic theolgy must hold to all of the tenets in order to be such. a TULIP without some or one of the petals is not systematic in nature by definition. I believe in Total Depravity...that man left to himself is doomed, but I don't believe it includes Augustinian original sin nor total inability. I think one can hold to one of these, and not the other, however, it no longer is the original systematic theolgy from where they came from.

 

[Shortandy]

The question really isn't do these particular doctrines fit together - rather I believe we should ask if total depravity and limited atonement are Scriptural doctrines. If we can conclude that they are (as I do) then they will naturally fit in together with the rest of God's revelation.

I agree and based on his response I would assume you are a 5 pointer. But to my friends who claim to be 4 pointers I am curious how you respond. If you believe the other 4 to be true then what logic is there for denying the other?

 

[Shortandy]

I will remember in the future that I can't make a general comment or exhortation in your threads.

Brother you answer however you would like. If you do not want to explain yourself in detail you go ahead...it make no difference to me. :thumbs:

 

[Pastor David]

I agree and based on his response I would assume you are a 5 pointer. But to my friends who claim to be 4 pointers I am curious how you respond. If you believe the other 4 to be true then what logic is there for denying the other?

I'm not so much a "5 Pointer" as I am simply a Biblical Pastor/Christian. As far as the Scriptural teaching regarding limited atonement is concerned, I believe there is ample evidence in support of that position. Just a couple of examples from off the cuff would be -

1. Jesus said He knew His sheep, and that He'd lose none of those He was given. I understand this to mean that His work in redemption is efficacious (producing the desired results). If Christ atoned for your sins, then your sins are atoned and you've been redeemed (no one whose sins were atoned for will be lost). This would in effect, limit the atonement only those who will be saved.

2. Secondly Christ, upon the institution of the Last Supper (Matt. 26), said that His blood was poured out for many (not all) for the remission of their sins. Again this text would appear to limit the nature, scope and efficacy of the atoning work of Jesus to many - not all.

I hope this helps.

 

[swaimj]

I am neither a 4-pointer nor a 5-pointer. However, the argument that 4-pointers make goes like this, as I understand it:

There is a distinction between the provision of the atonement and the application of the atonement. Atonement is provided for all but is applied only to the elect. 5-pointers tend to conflate this distinction in their argumentation, thus equating the provision and its application.

 

[TomMann]

I would, in all circles, be considered a calvinist, or reformed if you would. I believe in all aspects of T.U.L.I.P. The sticking point for most being the "L" as you have noted. I do believe that salvation is given to anyone and everyone who will come. The problem is that no one comes.

Luke 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

The invitation is sent (and in this case I take the "all with one consent" to mean all men without exception) and all men without exception make excuse. No one seeks God! No one comprehends the things of God! And as for Jesus, there is nothing of beauty in him that we should want him.

Now this next is an aside, and my own opinion. Again I say my own opinion.

Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

And the opinion is that the "flaming sword that keeps the way of the tree of life" is the thing that blocks us from any knowledge or understanding of the Word of God. We do not have eyes to see or ears to hear or a heart that comprehends. We are blocked from God by God as a result of sin.

Our house is on the edge of town and lots of over growth around. We have neighbors who overfeed their outdoor cats and as a result have lots of wild ones around. From time to time little ones are born and I have tried to woo said kittens with treats and friendship. To no avail. They are wild and will have nothing to do with me. "How oft I would have gathered them but they would not"! It is not within their nature, they are wild. By the same token it is not within our nature to come to God. We are by nature unable to overcome our desire to be free and have our free will.

As an act of his mercy and sovereign will, God has chosen a peculiar people (and believe me some of us are peculiar) to glorify Himself and his Word. And it involves removing our nature and giving us a new one. My bible says that we are made willing in the day of his power.

So I have no objection to anyone that says whosoever will may come. I also have no objection to the principle of limited atonement other than I think the term itself is misleading in that nothing of God is limited. All who he calls will come.

 

[Tom Bryant]

For me the part of the TULIP that I can't understand is the irresistible call of God. I have no issue with limited atonement. All of us believe in some form of limited atonement. Bible believer would agree that the atonement is not effective for everyone. We might and will disagree about the why part.

It seems in terms of the irristible grace that throughout the Bible there are lots of people who have resisted God's call. Evereytime I sin, I am resisting God's grace in terms of my disobedience to His command. Why is God's call absolutely irresistible only when it comes to salvation? I am not going to argue it or even discuss it. Had too many discussion with Calvinist theologians to beat that dead horse.

So I am a 4 pointer, just not the normal kind. :wavey:

 

[mparkerfd20]

Calvinism/Reformed Theology is something of great interest to me. I have been reading scripture, books on both sides of the fence and I have even attended conferences on the topic. I must admitt that it is difficult for me to admitt that I am reformed because that seems to be a dirty word in many circles. Some pastors will even refuse to associate with a person who takes this theological position.

In many of things I have heard and read many claim to be 4 point calvinist. At one conference DR. Davind Allan from SWTBS made huge claims that many of the big name Calvinsist from old where really only 4-pointers. The point they don't support is Limited Atonment.

My question is this: Is it possible to only be a 4 pointer? Wouldn't ones belief in Total Depravity (the T in TULIP) demand that one believe in the "L"?

If man is totally incapable of choosing to be saved then wouldn't it stand to reasont that it is God doing the choosing?

I am not trying to pick a fight here. I simply want to hear from you guys.

Thanks!!

No, not if they honestly hold to the other 4. Yes. Yes.

Since you wanted quick replies to your question(s).