Just for you ...

They do nothing of the sort. I looked all of them up! They are all verses speaking of God's love- or our command to love God. As for 2 Peter 3:9- that's the only verse you could use as a 'proof text' for your thesis statement and it isn't even referring to the non-elect! Who is the 'any?' None other than the 'usward.'

It is apparent you copied this list from a website or book. Demonstrating God is longsuffering does not somehow mean God's ultimate will is that all be saved.

I agree. YOU. A believer. No qualms there. Are you trying to copy me by posting long lists of verses Diane? You might want to be careful. People might call you to it and actually look them up!

 

OK Whetstone, You're on! Show us in 2 Peter 3:1-10 where this verse speaks of only "the elect" as you define the them! Here is is, Make your score!

If you don't like the NJB, here is the whole of 2 Peter 3 from the KING JAMES. So score you points! Prove beyond doubt that Peter is talking to "the elect only".

 

Be glad to Wes.

#1. (v.1,8,14) The people being written to are a) beloved and b) have pure minds. Sounds like believers to me.

#2. (v.3-7,10-14) The context of the passage is future prophecy.

#3. (v.9) The verse in question is prefaced by verse 8 which speaks of God's transcendence of time in His workings throughout history. When we come to verse 9 we then realize a) God is speaking in context of the last judgement days b) He is consoling those who are impatient by reminding them that He has His own timetable and c) He has something to say about our relationship to His timetable.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise as some men count slackness... What promise? Verse 4 refers to 'the promise of His coming.' So this phrase is reassuring those that doubt Christ's return. ...but is longsuffering to us-ward... God is being patient with us even though we are not being patient with Him. ...not willing that any should perish... Tho we get impatient, God will not allow any of His children to perish. Notice that the word 'any' grammatically modifies the word 'us-ward.' Also notice that the passage doesn't even remotely refer to unbelievers so it would be very out of place to try to misapply it. ...but that all should come to repentance. Whether speaking of repentence unto salvation, or repentence unto restored fellowship, God desires to save and to love His children. He has left the 99 other sheep to seek out that one lost sheep and bring him into the fold. That is the loving picture of the Good Shepherd.

When I was a 4 point Arminian, this was one of my favorite proof texts. Problem? I never actually read the whole chapter.

 

Does this mean then that ALL who believe are the ELECT of God?

Does it also mean that each of them was regenerated first so that they could believe? That is one of your tenets of faith is it not?

So what you are really telling us is that only those that have been regenerated so they could believe, actually believe and are therefore, God's elect!

Ya cain't prove it with scripture!

 

The Context of the passage 3-7 is FALSE TEACHERS!

The Context of 10-14 is "living in righteousness until the Lord's return" or the Day of the Lord!

 

Excuse me, but Peter, one of God's ELECT, is the one doing the speaking here, and not God. Peter is teaching his listeners, a simply principle about God. Peter says that God is not dragging his feet about carrying out his promises (what promises is Peter speaking of?), but is being patient with you (who is included in "you"?)
One must also pay attention to verse 10, in which Peter prophesies regarding the future of this present earth!

 

And that's really what it comes down to. When you do not accept the verbal-plenary inspiration of the scriptures as 'God-breathed' you question the doctrine of scripture. It is now very clear why you are in such opposition to the doctrines of grace. You think the Bible was inspired by men.

 

So, in your John Calvin bible it must say... For God loved a few people of the world so He sent His only begotten son that those He had already chosen to bring to heaven would not perish (WHAT??? Was predestination not enough) but have everlasting life'.

Now why would God send Jesus to save those already saved by predestination? Sounds like torture to me! </font>[/QUOTE]you don't understand Calvinism and therefore cannot ask appropriate questions. the childish accusations such as 'Calvin Bible' are evidence that you aren't ready to comment on Calvinism.

 

Hello dianetavegia.

In John 17:9 Jesus tells us that He does not pray for the world but for those that have been given Him out of the world.

With 24000 posts under your belt I am surprised that you should not understand that predestination is dependant on a sacrifice. The elect were elected to benefit from the death of death in the death of Christ and the world haven't a prayer.

john.

 

Ain't that the truth? Whetstone, as someone my age, I felt somewhat of a connection to you but after reading some of the verses you posted in "629 reasons" (I just picked out one category - limited atonement), I'm rather disappointed. I thought you were truly seeking the will of God. I can't say you aren't because I don't know you personally, but to find limited atonement in verses that do not even speak of the atonement is of concern to me, as a fellow believer. Are you certain that you are not simply trying to fit the Bible to your theology, or purposely looking for verses which can be made to fit? You don't have to answer that, it's just a question that every one of us should ask ourselves all the time.

 

And that's really what it comes down to. When you do not accept the verbal-plenary inspiration of the scriptures as 'God-breathed' you question the doctrine of scripture. It is now very clear why you are in such opposition to the doctrines of grace. You think the Bible was inspired by men. </font>[/QUOTE]False Accusation Whetstone!

Jesus Taught the Apostles the principles that God wanted them to know. It is the apostles who were taught by God, and Jesus says in his Prayer of John 17, in verse 20 that we would all come to Faith as the result of their (the apostle's) teachings.

So the answer to your False accusation is that Peter's words are Peter's words, the principles that Peter passed on to us from Jesus are the Word of God! Same for All of the New Testament writings. One could also say that of much of the OLD Testament writings. God gave us through the writings of men, the principles and truths he wanted us to know. It is those principles and truths upon which we base our faith, that brings us to SALVATION.

 

I appreciate the question, and I'm sorry you do not feel compelled to believe definite atonement as laid out in my list of verses. It's not, however, my job to convince you. What actually happened was that I began reading the NT through 6 months ago to find out the truth of the matter. I was a 4 point arminian and decided to code verses that seemed to apply to Calvinism OR Arminianism (i have coding for both). I began to realize that the Calvinism verses FAR outweighed the Arminianism verses. I wasn't looking expressly for Calvinistic verses. I was looking at both. It's just that I was so overwhelmed by the Calvinism verses I began looking specifically for them. I personally feel every verse in the Limited atonement section either explicitly teaches, or refers to Limited atonement. Which verse(s) in particular did you feel shouldn't be in there?

 

Hello Wes.

1 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.

ISA 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

You deny scripture again? What's your game? Causing Christ to be the Principle and not the Word of God? And you have the nerve to judge me?

john.