Justification by Faith and Justification by Works

[BobRyan]

Ok - but then you have to accept it as Paul speaks explicitly "of the Gospel" in Romans 2.

Rom 2

4 or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?[/b

.

Vs 4 shows us that the mercy - kindness - grace leads us to repent. This chapter starts with the Gospel basics of God's offer to grant repentance and that all need to repent.

Note: The Context for Romans 2 is STARTING with judgment, AND of the mercy of God that leads to repentance.

Let's continue letting the scripture speak for itself;

Rom2:

5 but because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

Paul is adamant that there is a future judgment “according to deeds”. Paul here identifies the “impartial” basis of God’s judgment. Instead of His simply “arbitrarily selecting” some to favor and others to ignore – ALL are judged according to deeds IN the context of the “call to repentance” of vs 4.

He speaks of this again in 2Cor 5 talking about future judgment and judged based on deeds “whether they be good or evil”.

Notice that in these first 6 verses we have an Arminian-style motivation - not to engage in man's faulty judgment of others. And there is no sense or expectation that this sin is not to stop or just to continue because we are totally depraved. Rather the argument is to stop.

Romans 2 - if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.

Rom 2:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Here is the “succeeding case” explicitly listed by Paul. And it is in the context of God - leading to repentance. We also have the people of God - persevering, doing good and seeking glory and honor. What is the result? The text says immortality and eternal life.

Barns commentary agrees –

Albert Barnes on

Eternal life....
That is, God will "render" eternal life to those who seek it in this manner. This is a great principle; and this shows that the apostle means [b]by "their deeds,"[/b] (Romans 2:6,) not merely their external conduct, but their inward thoughts, and efforts[/b] evinced by their seeking for glory, etc. For the meaning of the expression "eternal life," See Barnes "John 5:24".
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=002

Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!

Rom2:

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?

You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.

So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it. The opposite of such a just, objective just system would be “arbitrary selection” of the saved vs lost. It would be to arbitrarily select some for favor instead of “So loving the World”.

We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.

 

[James_Newman]

Romans 2:4
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

What is the goodness of God in this verse? If I have to work to be saved, shouldn't it say that repentence leadeth thee to the goodness of God?

 

[James_Newman]

Romans 4:6-8
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Now this sounds like the goodness of God that leadeth to repentence.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JN: HP, do you agree with Bob when he says we must work to keep our salvation?

HP: Without a clear discussion and subsequent understanding of the nature of salvation, that question is loaded. I can only speak for myself.

I will say this. We are not kept 'on the account of our works', i.e., our works are not the grounds of our salvation or perseverance, but neither are we kept apart from our works, thought of in the sense of 'not without which,' not 'that for the sake of.' Our works are not meritorious in any way, none the less action "oriented faith" is required, and "action oriented faith" will of necessity gender works, which are in their most primative state, formed and chosen intents and means to carry out those intents of the heart.

No work of man is meritorious for salvation or keeping saved period. Not faith, belief, repentance, or subsequent good works. Just the same, our chosen intents, works in the most primitive stage, must be chosen in order to fulfill the conditions God has mandated for us to do in order to receive a pardon for sin and to maintain a sure hope of eternal life.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2:4
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

What is the goodness of God in this verse? If I have to work to be saved, shouldn't it say that repentence leadeth thee to the goodness of God?

You asked where "repentance" is listed in Romans 2 - and I showed it.

Also Paul specifically identifies this with "The Gospel" -- EVEN the judgment (future judgment) is said in Romans 2 to be "According to my Gospel" that is according to the Gospel that Paul was preaching.

In Rev 14 John points out that the Gospel going out to the entire world was also about future judgment "Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment has come"

Your argument appears to be "Is it NO LONGER the Goodness of GOD that LEADS you to repentance IF the rest of Romans 2 is right"

I don't see how you can make that case.

As I pointed out - justifcation "past" is apart from works. But the future judgment is ALWAYS "faith THAT works" based on the rule of Christ "By their fruits you SHALL know them... not everyone WHO SAYS LORD LORD will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

There is no way to trick God out of these truths.

The way to understand Romans 2:4 is to read the rest of the chapter. Not to skip it and go to Romans 4 instead.

That is why I have posted huge sections of Romans 2 for context.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: justifcation "past" is apart from works.

HP: If you say that there is not something man must do fro ‘justification past’ you are eliminating repentance, faith and belief. The will must do something in each one of these points, without which salvation will not be accomplished. The will must choose, without force or coercion and end.

Define the word ‘work’ for us. Are you suggesting that it is not ‘something we must do?’ Do you believe man is passive in repentance, faith and belief, or in fact is there something man MUST do in order for any of these to come to fruition?

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that if you include "Belief and repentance" as "works" then even Justification "past" includes works for Romans 10 makes it clear that "Belief" results in salvation.

But when you see "works" mentioned by Paul and James - it is often a "companion" to faith and belief. James says "do you BELIEVE -- so also do the devils". Paul mentions faith "apart from works" and seems to include faith and belief as something that is apart from the definition of the term "works" as HE is using it. So there is sometimes a "context" for works that EXCLUDES belief and faith as works and in that sense -- past justification is apart from works.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR:…past justification is apart from works.

HP: You need to settle the issue if faith and repentance are works or not. Are we active or passive? You gave the verse about God granting to everyman the measure of faith, but we both know this saves no one in and of itself. We are speaking about faith that saves. Does man have to ‘do something’ in order for faith that saves to come to fruition?

 

[BobRyan]

Christ uses the term "Works" in a context that INCLUDES TRUE belief (faith and repentance) as works.

John shows this same context in Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock if anyone hears AND OPENS the door I will then COME in". The action of opening the door is not "optional".

But in Romans 3 Paul uses it in a context that EXCLUDES those actions from the "term works". In Romans 10 Paul shows that those ACTIONS are very necessary to "the result" of being saved. In other words - in Romans 3 Paul does not argue that you "need not repent to be justified" -- rather he zeroes in on a meaning for works that EXCLUDES those ACTIONS for the sake of the Jewish reader who also does not include those actions the term "works".

In that way "Justified apart from works" does not exclude those actions.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 10

Rom 10:8 but what does it say? “the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved;

saved - salvation to those who believe. The fact that one who believes and is saved will continue to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation just as stated above - at the time we believe.

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 for the scripture says, “whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.”

Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism


In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you know believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!

By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
#1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
#2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
#3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
#4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!

Notice that the “expected” Arminian sequence also appears in Acts 26 -

Acts 26

16 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 to open their eyes[/b] so that they may turn from darkness to light[/b] and from the dominion of Satan to God[/b], that they may [b]receive forgiveness[/b] of sins and an inheritance[/b] among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

#1. Eyes opened by the preaching. Paul needs to go and be used by God to Open their eyes to truth.
#2. They need to CHOOSE to turn from darkness to light. (Christ is the one who coming into the world enlightens all mankind)
#3. And having turned – to be transferred FROM the dominion of Satan TO The dominion (Kingdom) of God. (Born again) Child of God.
#4. Having transitioned into God’s kingdom they are forgiven and saved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Christ uses the term "Works" in a context that INCLUDES TRUE belief (faith and repentance) as works.

John shows this same context in Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock if anyone hears AND OPENS the door I will then COME in". The action of opening the door is not "optional".

But in Romans 3 Paul uses it in a context that EXCLUDES those actions from the "term works".

HP: I do not find that to be true at all. I see Paul in Romans using works in a completely different sense. He is not excluding anything per say, but rather just not addressing works from that particular angle or in that sense, i.e., works as it concerns faith repentance etc.

BR: In Romans 10 Paul shows that those ACTIONS are very necessary to "the result" of being saved.

HP: Then if that is true, it is just as true in Romans 3, although as I said it is not the object of the sense he is speaking of in that text, which is none other than works as it relates to ceremonial law.

BR: In other words - in Romans 3 Paul does not argue that you "need not repent to be justified" -- rather he zeroes in on a meaning for works that EXCLUDES those ACTIONS for the sake of the Jewish reader who also does not include those actions the term "works".

HP: That to me is just plain confusing. There is not a meaning for works that excludes those actions, but rather the word can be used in two senses. He simply is using the word ‘works’ in a different context and in another sense.

BR: In that way "Justified apart from works" does not exclude those actions.

HP: It simply is not using ‘works’ in the sense of the initial acts of the will required for salvation, but rather he is using works in the sense of compliance to the OT ceremonial law, in particular circumcision.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
BR: In other words - in Romans 3 Paul does not argue that you "need not repent to be justified" -- rather he zeroes in on a meaning for works that EXCLUDES those ACTIONS for the sake of the Jewish reader who also does not include those actions the term "works".


HP: That to me is just plain confusing. There is not a meaning for works that excludes those actions

What is the problem of having context determine the scope of the term and its use?

When Christ speaks of US doing the WORKS of God and saying that this is to "Believe on the Son" -- we see that clearly "true BELIEF" (faith and repentance ) is being "included" in the term "Works".

But when Paul speaks of "faith APART from works" in Rom 3 he is obviously NOT including "Faith" (choosing to believe and repent) as part of what HE is calling works in Romans 3.

In your example you mention circumcision - and that is a good example of something OTHER than faith, belief, repentance that is in the scope of "Works".

How is this idea of context determining the scope a problem?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: How is this idea of context determining the scope a problem?

HP: Now that is not confusing at all.

 

[BobRyan]

BR: How is this idea of context determining the scope a problem?

HP: Now that is not confusing at all.

In classic exegesis we see the "meaning" of the text being determined by the context in which it is used. We add to that the way that the author (the same author) uses the same words/phrases in other writings and then we add to that the way OTHER writers use that same word or phrase.

So not just with the term "works" but also with many others - we first look at context.

If Paul speaks of "Faith APART from works" and James speaks of "Belief APART from Works" as well as "Faith alone" (Faith that has NO works) -- it is CLEAR that they are selecting a context where there is s DIFFERENCE between faith and belief and -- WORKS.

But when Jesus speaks of Belief AS a "work" then HE is selecting a context in which belief - faith and repentance ARE included as WORKS.

My question to you is - what problem does this cause?

And I ask this as one who DOES insist that we DO have to actively CHOOSE to believe and repent to then BE justified.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: My question to you is - what problem does this cause?

HP: Lets see if there is a problem. Are faith, repentance, and belief works that man must do? Are faith, repentance, and works, when speaking of man complying with them as called upon by God to invoke, ALWAYS works for man to do? Are they ever excluded from being a work? If so, do not point me to a particular text where you say one is excluded, but explain to me the principles involved, that I can apply to any text. Show me in what sense faith, repentance, and belief are always works, and in what sense they are never works. This will help me understand you better. Thanks.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Lets see if there is a problem. Are faith, repentance, and belief works that man must do? Are faith, repentance, and works, when speaking of man complying with them as called upon by God to invoke, ALWAYS works for man to do? Are they ever excluded from being a work? If so, do not point me to a particular text where you say one is excluded, but explain to me the principles involved, that I can apply to any text. Show me in what sense faith, repentance, and belief are always works, and in what sense they are never works. This will help me understand you better. Thanks.

Whenever you see "FAITH APART from works" Romans 2.

Or "BELIEF and faith" being mentioned as being "without works" as in James 2.

Then you can always conclude that they are being excluded from works in those instances.

There is no way to say "car apart from car"

 

[Briguy]

No time to read four pages of posts so I will just say this in case it wasn't said. The word Justify means "to prove". I think we could say safely in the Bible context that it would mean directly, "to prove worthy or righteous" (why does worthy look like I spelled it wrong - I guess it may be a long day), anyway - Paul and James are addressing 2 different justifications. Paul is addressing being justified before God, which is by faith. James however is addressing the issue of being "prooved righteous" before men, which is by works. God sees the heart directly and knows our faith. Men (the world) can't see our hearts. The world can only see what we do and how we act. The world sees our hearts by our love for others. There is no conflict between Paul and James. Both are completely right in what they say. It really is that easy to understand. :smilewinkgrin:

In Christ,
Brian

 

[mojoala]

Faith Alone Justifies?

I have done a bible search on verses that contain both the word "Faith" and "Alone".

Only one exists:

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Where does this idea of "Faith Alone" comes from if one can not find any verse that states this.

I would welcome any verse that had "Faith coupled with any word that meant "Alone".

 

[mojoala]

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 - many Christians err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul's mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the "works of the law." Here is the proof:


James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Rom. 3:29 - Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking "Or is God the God of the Jews only?" It does not mean "good works."

Rom. 4:9-17 - Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

Rom. 9:31-32 - righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, "works of law" does not mean "good works."

Rom. 11:6,11 - justification is no longer based on "works" of the law, but on the grace of Christ. Why? Because salvation is also for the Gentiles.

Rom. 15:9-12 - Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, "works of law" are no longer required.

Acts 13:39 - Luke also confirms this by providing that we have been “freed from the law of Moses.” This is the “works of the law” from which we have been freed.

Rom. 3:20,28 - in addition to the Mosaic law, as stated above, "works of the law" can also refer to anything that makes God a debtor to us. This is because law requires payment, but grace is a free gift from God. Therefore, faith must be behind every good work in order for it to be a work of grace. If not, it is a work of debt, and we cannot obligate God to do anything for us.

Rom. 4:3-4 - Paul refers to works apart from God's grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.

Rom. 6:23 – this is why Paul says the "wages" of sin is death. Eternal life is a free gift from God. We cannot obligate God to pay us for our works; otherwise, we are in a system of law, not a system of grace.

Rom. 11:6 – Paul says that if justification is now based on grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Rom. 11:35 - it is impossible to obligate God for payment, and sinful to think we can. We cannot do "works of the law" to obligate God. We are not in a debtor/creditor relationship with God. He owes us nothing. Instead, we are in a Father/child covenant relationship with Him, and He will reward us for being faithful.

Gal. 6:8-9 - the earnings referred to here are from God's grace. It is a free gift, not an obligation. This underscores that our relationship with God is Father/son and daughter, not employer/employee.

Rom. 8:14-17; Heb. 12:5-11 - these texts further emphasize our father/son relationship with God. Our relationship is familial, not legal.

Rom. 7:6 - we are now discharged from the "law," that is "works of the law." We now serve God in faith working in love.

Rom. 10:4 - Christ is the end of the "law." We are now justified by faith in Christ, not faith in the law.

Rom. 13:8,10 - loving one another is fulfilling the new law of Christ. This is internal and personal, not external and impersonal.

Gal. 2:16 - again, man is not justified by "works of the law." Again, Paul is referring to the Mosaic law and anything which views God as a debtor to us.

Gal. 2:19,21 - justification "through the law" means justification through the Mosaic law or a legal system that makes God a debtor to us.

Gal. 3:10 – shows that "works of the law" refers to the "book of the law" which was the strict and impersonal Mosaic law of the Old Testament.

Gal. 3:17 - this "law" came 430 years after Abraham. So "works of law" here clearly refer to the Mosaic law, not "good works."

Gal. 3:13; 4:4-5 - in fact, the "works of the law" (not good works in God's grace) is a curse from which Christ freed us.

Gal. 3:19 - these "works of law" were only good for showing us our sinfulness, but not teaching us how to live.

Gal. 5:4,14; 6:2 - the "law" is of no use. The new law is the law of Christ, which is faith working through love.

Eph. 2:8-9 - we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of "works," lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by erring Christians refers to the "works" of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works.
This is why Paul refers to “works of ourselves” and so we can’t “boast.” Paul says the same thing about “works”

Rom. 4:2,4 – if Abraham was justified by “works,” he would have something to “boast” about. Here, the wages are not counted as grace, but debt. “Boasting” does not attribute works to God, but to oneself. But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24, etc.) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves.

Eph. 2:10 - in quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, Erring Christians invariably ignore the very next verse. Right after Paul's teaching on "works" referring to Mosaic law, Paul says we are created in Christ for "good works" - a clear distinction between "works of law" (Mosaic law/legal payment) and "good works" (law of Christ/reward of grace).

Eph. 2:11-16 - this section further explains Paul's reference to "works" which relates to following the Jewish legal ordinances.
Eph. 3:17 - Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, but we also must be rooted and grounded in love.

Whew!

 

[J. Jump]

James however is addressing the issue of being "prooved righteous" before men, which is by works.

The problem that I see with that take on it is that we are not in need of being justified in the sight of man. God even tells us if we are worried about what man thinks of us our focus is in the wrong direction.

Man will never judge man, so there is no need to be in right standing with man, only right standing with God.

Works have to do with the righteous acts of the saints which will make up the wedding garment for the bride of Christ.

Again there are all kinds of people that believe (have faith) that Christ is coming back and that He will rule over the earth and that we can rule and reign with Him in that coming day. They have faith. But their faith does not lead them to the action of living the obedient, faithful, overcoming life. They have faith, but it is dead. It is useless, becuase that faith will not save them from losing their soul/inheritance/ability to rule and reign.

When comparing Scripture with Scripture that is the only interpretation Scripture leaves us as being correct.