Justification by Faith and Justification by Works

[mojoala]

Some christians believe salvation is fully a work of God which is only accomplished through faith (belief, personal confession,...)

The big question, then, is,"Is this faith (belief) the work of God or man or both?

If it is God's work, as some seem to imply when you say that "salvation is fully a work of God", then why are you here?

Does God require your presence to further his work?

If so, then the "full" work of God requires our participation in some sense, and to say that it is fully the work of God must be rearticulated.

Or do some not really believe it is God doing all the work? Some speak one belief yet some personal actions speak another.

 

[J. Jump]

salvation is fully a work of God

What that means is God did all the work that was required. The penalty for sin is death and shed blood. Christ died the work required to pay the penalty in that He lived a perfect life and then died and shed His blood. It is all His work and no work of our own.

If we will just believe in what was done on our behalf then we are saved. But we are saved based on the work of Christ, not our own work.

Our work has other implications.

 

[genesis12]

Fast and furious we labored long, our insights to deploy,
But in the end all that was left was reams and reams of noise.

"It is!" said I, "'tis not!" said he, the rumble going on,
A parting shot, then quiet at last, until a new day dawns.

"What profit this?" a bystander moans, with head held in his hands,
"'tis not of profit," another groaned, "'tis naught but emptiness."

 

[mojoala]

[/size]

It is all His work and no work of our own.

If we will just believe in what was done on our behalf then we are saved. But we are saved based on the work of Christ, not our own work.

Well all I have to do to be saved is believe in what was don on our behalf, which is Christ died on the Cross for all of our Sins then I am all set:

I now have the guarantee of internal salvation because all of my sins are automatically forgiven.

So I don't need to pray since praying does nothing to affect my salvation.

So I don't need to attend church since attending church does nothing to affect my salvation.

And I can violate any Old Testament Law(since we are no longer bound by Old Testament Law) without having my salvation affected.

Hey I like that idea. I don't even have to tithe, since that is an Old Testament Law and we are no longer bound by it. My Salvation is not affected by my lack of tithing.

Wow. From this forward I can sever all ties with any earthly church because MY SALVATION IS ASSURED regardless of what I do in the future.

Wow, thanks all for showing me the Truth.

Now I can sleep :sleeping_2: because I don't have worry about anything ever again. No more pressures of attending church service 3 times a week, no more pressures about loving my brother and neighbor, no more pressures from the money hungry Pastor that wants my tithe. Wow just believe that Jesus died on the Cross for me and all I have to do, is just merely believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior. PERIOD!

This sounds all too good to be true.

 

[mojoala]

I no longer have to worry about clothing the naked.

I no longer have to worry about feeding the hungry.

I no longer have to quench the thirsty.

I no longer have to visit the sick.

I no longer have to visit the imprisoned.

No more bible study, because I already know and acknowledge and believe Jesus is my personal lord and Savior. I have a gift of grace from God that no one can take away. I am justified because of my faith.

Nothing more is required of me.

Wow, sounds too good to be true.

 

[Briguy]

J. Jump, I think you may have missed my point. How does God share the Gospel with the world? -- Sky writing? , He just shouts the good news from the Mountain tops? No, the fact is that He uses us to reach the world. We are God's hands and feet. The Bible says something to the effect of: "Blessed are the feet that bring good news" Our witness to the world is only effective if our actions match our words. We must "prove" ourself to others before they accept what we say. Justify means "to prove" We prove ourselves as Christians by what we do. That was James' point. Our actions are everything in the respect of our dealing with the world. On the other hand we can't fool God into counting us as righteous by our actions. We can pray, we can sing songs to Him, we can go to church, but none of those things can fool God into justifying us. God sees the heart directly. All the actions we do will mean nothing to God if our heart is not right with Him, through faith.

mojoala, Would you really be happy like that? Would you be living the abundunt life God promised? Would laying around doing nothing for the one who payed the biggest price possible, be something you would want to do?

If you owed a bill collecter $50,000 today or your house would be lost and someone came and gave the money to you, would you be thankful?? Would you not shake that persons hand and praise their act of kindness. Your heart would be warm for days after as you thought about what that person did for you. How much more has Christ done and how much more should we be thankful! Yes, our thankful, warm hearts may grow colder from time to time because life is tough but God is faithful to give us strength and bring us back to having those warm hearts like we did when we first realized what He did for us. God uses His people to help His people return to "the joy of my salvation" as David said. Your thought that people would take their position in Christ and just laze around and do nothing for God is silly. Could a Christian go a season with being down and doing less for God? - Yes, no question but the attitude that you posted is just plain silly. The reason that you know you would never do what you said is the same reason other believers won't either. Think about it.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[J. Jump]

Well all I have to do to be saved is believe in what was don on our behalf, which is Christ died on the Cross for all of our Sins then I am all set:

I now have the guarantee of internal salvation because all of my sins are automatically forgiven.

Now that is a misunderstanding of salvation on the part of many evangelicals. Not all your sins are forgiven at the cross, but your past sins.

So I don't need to pray since praying does nothing to affect my salvation.

You do need to pray becuase the salvation of your soul is now at stake after the eternal salvation issue has been settled.

So I don't need to attend church since attending church does nothing to affect my salvation.

I would not advise you to not attend church, but attending church DOES NOT have anything to do with eternal salvation. That point you are correct on.

And I can violate any Old Testament Law(since we are no longer bound by Old Testament Law) without having my salvation affected.

Not without consequences, but it won't impact your eternal salvation no.

Hey I like that idea.

While it is technically an option I and the Bible would strongly advise that you not live that way, becuase the Bible says it's not going to be a pretty picture for those that do for 1,000 years.

I don't even have to tithe, since that is an Old Testament Law and we are no longer bound by it. My Salvation is not affected by my lack of tithing.

Your eternal salvation is not based on your personal obedience.

Wow. From this forward I can sever all ties with any earthly church because MY SALVATION IS ASSURED regardless of what I do in the future.

Again while that is technically a choice you could make it would be a very unwise one.

Wow, thanks all for showing me the Truth.

You may see the Truth, but you obviously don't have a understanding of it.

Now I can sleep :sleeping_2: because I don't have worry about anything ever again. No more pressures of attending church service 3 times a week, no more pressures about loving my brother and neighbor, no more pressures from the money hungry Pastor that wants my tithe. Wow just believe that Jesus died on the Cross for me and all I have to do, is just merely believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior. PERIOD!

No there are no more pressures. If you have to rely on you for saving yourself then yes there would be all kinds of pressures, but fortunately we only have to look to Christ for our eternal salvation.

Not that is not the case for the salvation of our souls.

 

[J. Jump]

Our witness to the world is only effective if our actions match our words.

While I agree with that somewhat I think you are giving man way to much credit and not enough credit to God. God is very capable of overcoming man's ineptness and sharing His Truth despite us.

But the bottom line is James is not talking about us proving ourselves to mankind. That isn't even the context of the book. The context of the book is the salvation of the soul.

We can have faith to know that our soul can be saved, but salvation of the soul is a combonation of faith and works. So if one just believes their soul can be saved, but have not works that faith will not save them, becuase it is dead and useless.

Has nothing to do with proving ourselves to mankind. Although I would agree that our walk needs to be at least on par if not above our talk.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Briguy: God sees the heart directly and knows our faith. Men (the world) can't see our hearts.

HP: You say men cannot see our hearts. You are a man. How can you see your faith, or examine yourself to see if in fact you are of the faith without witnessing the intents formed by your will? So what if God sees our hearts. You and I are not God and are not privy to viewing our hearts from His perspective, so what good does that information do us? Our walk is a walk of faith, which is dead if it is not followed by intents in line with loving God and our fellowman, is it not?

Many are going to say to Him in the last day that they thought they were of the faith, and only some of them will be accepted in. What is your assurance that the faith you have is not mere self-deception?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mojoala: Now I can sleep because I don't have worry about anything ever again.

HP: Your problem is that you are far too logical.

 

[James_Newman]

Romans 4:23-25
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Jesus died for our offenses and was raised again for our justification. His righteousness is imputed to us if we believe. If we are currently justified by faith, then we have peace with God. How do we get from this to "well if there's nothing else to do I don't have to worry do I?" Paul continues in chapter 5:

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So in addition to currently being reconciled and having peace with God through Jesus, we have access into grace, and we have the hope of the Glory of God, and that if we are now justified by his blood, we have hope that we will also be saved from wrath. How will we be saved from wrath? By standing in the grace that He has made available to us through His death, and allowing Christ to live through us.

There is a danger of experiencing the wrath of God as a believer who is currently justified by faith and reconciled to God. Hence the second justification which is by works added to faith. If we would be saved from wrath, we must continue in faith and add works to our faith.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JN: There is a danger of experiencing the wrath of God as a believer

HP: Only if you are a deceived believer that is. No one is saved if they receive of God’s wrath.

 

[Briguy]

J. Jump - the verses below give me my assurance of salvation. The Bible is clear here that I can know I have eternal life and that the Holy Spirit is who bears that witness to me and lets me know. Many Christians feel they can't know for sure but they can. Knowing I am saved and bound for heaven is the fuel for my good works and my love toward others. That is what James is saying. That being: When you got saved God filled your fuel tank with love for others and to show others you have the fuel you need to have actions show the love. The car must drive down the street in other words, not sit in the driveway. The world will not know that the car really works unless they see it being driven. James is saying to drive our car because we have the fuel. He is not saying that the car driving is what produces the fuel. That does not even make sense. God says that the believer is created for good works, therefore the fuel is given freely after salvation. James is talking about eternal salvation. I agree with that. He is not saying we need faith and works to prove anything to God. That again is illogical. God is not in Heaven wondering if we will do good works, He already knows. I don't see God watching us and biting His nails hoping that we have actions with our faith so He knows our faith is real. Do you who believe it takes faith and works to be saved believe that God is anxious when he watches us? If you don't, then paint me a picture that makes sense in terms of God knowing all before it happens. James is saying that our eternal salvation is only real to others when they see something to confirm it.
In Christ,
Brian
1 John 5: 10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Romans 8: 14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[15] For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

[J. Jump]

James is saying that our eternal salvation is only real to others when they see something to confirm it.

Can you give me a verse or a couple of verses that gives us the context that James is talking to believers about the way they are perceived by others. It's just not there. You can believe it all you want to but it's just not there.

By the way I John is not a good place to preach eternal security. I John uses present tense verbs, which means as long as you are believing life is yours, but as soon as you stop believing life is no longer yours.

A lot of people use John's gospel and first epistle that way, but the language does not bear that out.

 

[Briguy]

J. Jump, 1 John says Eternal Life, not just life. Eternal = forever. Once I know I have eternal life it has to last forever or it was not eternal to start with. The Bible says eternal life and I believe what it says. Eternal is eternal regardless of the tenses around it. Actually the fact that the present tense says you can know NOW that you have eternal life helps my argument. Eternal life is not some future event when I die, it is something I know I have now and eternal is forever from the moment it is eternal.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[J. Jump]

Brian you need to do a word study on the mistranslation of the word eternal. What happened was the KJV translators used the Latin Vulgate translation extensively instead of going back to the original language. And the Latin translators translated the Greek word aionios, which actually means age-lasting, as eternal.

And everyone has stuck with that translation since then, for a couple of different reasons. One is when translating something from one langauge to another you can not but help that your theology creeps into the text. And there was a LOT of time for misinterpretation to have crept in by the time the Vulgate was translated and even more so for the KJV.

Now modern translators leave it as eternal, becuase of money. They know they aren't going to sell Bibles if they dash everyone's idea that eternal really doesn't mean eternal in most cases. So for the almighty dollar they have stuck with error instead of Truth.

Aionios is a Greek adjective which is a descriptive word describing the Greek root word aion, which means age. A distinict period of time that has a beginning and an end.

So aionios should really be translated age-lasting life or life for the age.

Again John's present tense doesn't allow for eternal salvation, because if it is speaking of eternal salvation then security is a farce, because once you stop believing then you lose your life.

Hope that helps.

 

[BobRyan]

So in addition to currently being reconciled and having peace with God through Jesus, we have access into grace, and we have the hope of the Glory of God, and that if we are now justified by his blood, we have hope that we will also be saved from wrath. How will we be saved from wrath? By standing in the grace that He has made available to us through His death, and allowing Christ to live through us.

There is a danger of experiencing the wrath of God as a believer who is currently justified by faith and reconciled to God. Hence the second justification which is by works added to faith. If we would be saved from wrath, we must continue in faith and add works to our faith.

Not sure if I am "supposed" to be doing this - but I am agreeing with James.

We add works to faith as James 2 insists and as Romans 2 shows us and as Christ states is a dependable FACT in Matt 7. The Good tree WILL produce good fruit.

In John 15 if this does not happen - the branch is removed, withers, dies and is cast into fire.

1 John 2 we see John expand on this to the point of saying that the one that claims to Love and KNOW Christ (IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments) and yet DOES NOT walk as HE walked - is a liar.

And James is very correct that the wrath of God is poured out on those who rebell against God EVEN if at one time - they did not.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Only if you are a deceived believer that is. No one is saved if they receive of God’s wrath.

Correct! The Gospel promise is to DELIVER us from the wrath of God against sin - by providing forgiveness of sin AND the new Birth, New Creation where the LAW of God is written on the heart.

We become obedient "from the heart" instead of sinners devoted to rebellion against Christ our Creator.

 

[Briguy]

J. Jump, age lasting sounds like eternal life to me. If it said one age, or age ending, or age restricted then I could see your point. Your explanation sounds like a conspiricy theory that could make the whole Bible worthless because there would have to be many places that things were translated for "money" No, if I have to go with the KJV translators, the NASB translators, etc... I will pick them over you.:smilewinkgrin: I do agree that our personal theology influences how we view scripture. That just is a fact. There is truth that must be held and sometimes having a doctrine in mind is the only way to properly interpret certain scriptures.

On James, there is not a verse that you would accept that shows that the justification in James is differnt then Pauls. I would challange you to look at Abraham in James and when Paul speaks of him. In Genesis, it is not the act of Abraham raising the knife to his son that caused God tocall him righteous. Paul points out that it was 15 years before that act that God declared Abraham righteous by faith. His faith is what prooved him righteous (justified). James says that Abraham was justified when he showed his faith in actions. Abraham was already justified to God, therefore his actions made him justified (righteous, faithful,) to the world. His faith was made valid or complete by his actions but..... God already knew what He would do and proclaimed him righteous some 15 years before that. That action was for us, not God. That is the only thing that makes sense and is the point james is making.

Please address my question a couple posts ago about another practical way to view what I said. Thanks

J.Jump, thanks for the good debate. I appreciate your knowledge and kindness.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[J. Jump]

J. Jump, age lasting sounds like eternal life to me. If it said one age, or age ending, or age restricted then I could see your point.

Age though is a definite period of time. Eternity has no beginning or end. Age-lasting speaks of the next age, which is the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

Your explanation sounds like a conspiricy theory that could make the whole Bible worthless because there would have to be many places that things were translated for "money" No, if I have to go with the KJV translators, the NASB translators, etc...

Then you are trusting non Spirit guided men instead of the Holy Spirit Authored Words of God.