Keep you from falling

[BobRyan]

Sorry to be joining the party so late friends.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DanV: Adam chose to sin when tempted by the serpent, as God had ordained.

HP: Is this not your way of saying that God put it in Adam’s heart to sin?
What choice did he have if God ‘ordained it?’ According to you was not Adam simply not carrying out the unavoidable plan of God?

Would not it be better to present God as getting glory ‘in spite of the sin,’ instead of saying that He ordains it for His glory? If He ordains sin for His glory, would not that put a premium on sin, the more sin the more glory? Why would God stop something that brings Him glory? Would that not make sin a good thing?

Would it not be sin to refuse to do that which brings God glory if it was within your means to do so? Does that not create some wicked sort of circle of sin, and all for God’s glory?

 

[Dan V.]

HP: Is this not your way of saying that God put it in Adam’s heart to sin?
What choice did he have if God ‘ordained it?’ According to you was not Adam simply not carrying out the unavoidable plan of God?

Would not it be better to present God as getting glory ‘in spite of the sin,’ instead of saying that He ordains it for His glory? If He ordains sin for His glory, would not that put a premium on sin, the more sin the more glory? Why would God stop something that brings Him glory? Would that not make sin a good thing?

Would it not be sin to refuse to do that which brings God glory if it was within your means to do so? Does that not create some wicked sort of circle of sin, and all for God’s glory?

God is glorified in that He punishes sin and sinners - and rightly so. Those who die in their sins rightly are sent to hell. Those who are saved have their sins imputed to Christ - He took their punishment. Thus God is glorified in His mercy. It's all connected and logical.

Dan V.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DanV: God is glorified in that He punishes sin and sinners - and rightly so. Those who die in their sins rightly are sent to hell. Those who are saved have their sins imputed to Christ - He took their punishment. Thus God is glorified in His mercy. It's all connected and logical.

HP: Logical? Are you kidding? You paint a picture of sinful man created by God and ordained to sin and that continually , impossible to overcome. That is simply necessitated fate. And you tell us that it is logical for God to punish His own designed creation, designed just as he ordained it (according to you), a sinner, to eternal punishment? It would be my opinion that a child or the heathen have a better sense of justice and logic than you exhibit. Even a child knows full well that if they are not responsible for the intent, they should in no wise be punished. Have you ever heard one exclaim, “I did not mean to! It was an accident!”?

Can anyone wonder why it is so hard to put ones faith in finding a fair jury or court?

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

HP: God calls us to help the unfortunate. This may well be your oportunity to shine.

Tell me, what is so unfortunate in the way I believe Scripture treats salvation?

Salvation is God's promise to us, not our promise to him. It is God's integrity that is the guarantee of His promise.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AQ: Salvation is God's promise to us, not our promise to him. It is God's integrity that is the guarantee of His promise.

HP: If I were a governor and I granted you a pardon, would the integrity of the guarantee of the pardon be a result of my integrity or yours?

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

HP: If I were a governor and I granted you a pardon, would the integrity of the guarantee of the pardon be a result of my integrity or yours?

Your are asking the obvious and something you already know the answer to, what then is the purpose of the question and/or your point?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: If I were a governor and I granted you a pardon, would the integrity of the guarantee of the pardon be a result of my integrity or yours?

The integrity of the guarantee would be a result of your integrity since you are the one who has the authority to give the pardon or revoke the pardon regardless of what I do or don't do.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: The integrity of the guarantee would be a result of your integrity since you are the one who has the authority to give the pardon or revoke the pardon regardless of what I do or don't do.

HP: In this I would agree. Just the same, does what is called ‘the integrity of the guarantee’ mandate that the one with the authority granting the pardon cannot or could not place conditions upon that which they might grant? Furthermore, in the case of a pardon, can the governor wisely grant a pardon to a convicted criminal and violator of the law without some conditions being placed upon the pardon or assurances made or demonstrated by the convicted before a pardon is granted? Can a wise and benevolent governor simply pardon and individual for a crime upon society without having some assurance that they will not go out into society again and perpetrate the same or other crime upon the other subjects of his state?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: In this I would agree. Just the same, does what is called ‘the integrity of the guarantee’ mandate that the one with the authority granting the pardon cannot or could not place conditions upon that which they might grant? Furthermore, in the case of a pardon, can the governor wisely grant a pardon to a convicted criminal and violator of the law without some conditions being placed upon the pardon or assurances made or demonstrated by the convicted before a pardon is granted? Can a wise and benevolent governor simply pardon and individual for a crime upon society without having some assurance that they will not go out into society again and perpetrate the same or other crime upon the other subjects of his state?

In strict human terms, no. But we are obviously comparing the governor to God in the pardoning of criminals. The only condition God has placed on the criminal (the sinner) is believe in the One God has sent. Faith apart from works. He guarantees eternal life to all those who meet His condition. He is faithful and true. He is the only One who has true integrity and that is why He can be trusted completely to keep those who are His.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: In strict human terms, no. But we are obviously comparing the governor to God in the pardoning of criminals. The only condition God has placed on the criminal (the sinner) is believe in the One God has sent.

HP: I disagree. God indeed has other conditions, one of which is to repent.

Amy: Faith apart from works.

HP: Faith apart from works according to Scripture is dead faith, Can dead faith save anyone? Harmonize the two passages. That is our job as theologians.

Amy: He guarantees eternal life to all those who meet His condition. He is faithful and true. He is the only One who has true integrity and that is why He can be trusted completely to keep those who are His.

HP: And He can and indeed will keep those that are His. The question is ‘who are His?’ Scripture tells us plainly. “Mt 7:21 ¶ “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

 

[Amy.G]

HP: I disagree. God indeed has other conditions, one of which is to repent

Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

HP: Faith apart from works according to Scripture is dead faith, Can dead faith save anyone? Harmonize the two passages. That is our job as theologians.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Jam 2:26 For just as the body without {the} spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Our works will reveal our faith. Works are NOT part of salvation. But if you have a saving faith, you will produce good works.

HP: And He can and indeed will keep those that are His. The question is ‘who are His?’ Scripture tells us plainly. “Mt 7:21 ¶ “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Jhn 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Jhn 10:29 "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Pretty plain who are His. And He doesn't lose any. They NEVER perish.

Works won't save you and works won't keep you.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: I disagree. God indeed has other conditions, one of which is to repent.



HP: Faith apart from works according to Scripture is dead faith, Can dead faith save anyone? Harmonize the two passages. That is our job as theologians.

Good points all.

JUST as we see in Rev 3 "Behold I STAND at the door AND KNOCK if anyone hears AND OPENS the door I WILL come in and fellowship with him"

JUST as we see in Romans 10 "WITH THE HEART one believes resulting in righteousness...with the mouth they confess resulting in salvation"

Rom 10
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that [b]if you confess[/b] with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, [b]you will be saved; [/b]
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and [b]with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/b]
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES[/b] IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

This free will "choice" condition is why we find in John 1 "HE came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN received Him not"


in Christ,

Bob