KEEPING THE LAW is not an OPTION - pt.2

[gekko]

my mom isn't for orthodox judaism - my moms a true christian - we both go to a messianic congregation of both jews and gentiles - and on sunday we go to a mennonite church. once in a blue moon we go to the IFB church on the flats...

i agree with what you are laying out - but im not totally convinced - i mean. i know the bible says that - but i would still like to get a jewish perspective on it.

the thing is though - we're still gentiles. no?

 

[D28guy]

BrotherBob,

I live in Berea, Ky. I play in a gospel bluegrass band. If you invite us we will come. We never charge a penny. A love offering is never asked for, either. We will accept one if a fellowship wants to do that, however.

If you want us to come for a Sunday night or Saturday night meeting let me know and I'll send you the contact number.

We played close to Manchester last weekend.

God bless,

Mike

(I play the dobro, btw)

 

[BobRyan]

Gekko - you are right in that Romans 11 proves that God loves the Jews just like everyone else and FAITH WAS the only IN that they had. Should they follow in faith now - He is just as willing to save them ALSO as Romans 11 says.

But Bro Bob is also correct in showing that Romans 2 spells this out clearly.

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. [/b]

The Jews thought that DNA (family lineage) was an IN TICKET to heaven. In Romans 2 and 9 and also in 11 Paul argues staunchly against it.

Nothing would please me more than to see all the Jews express faith in Christ "tomorrow" because then ALL of them would be saved - praise God!

BTW - the Messianic Jews are neat - I have been to a few of their services. They also have a lot to offer in showing the Messianic fulfillment in the Passover service.

But the non-Christian JEWish faiths (the Orthodox for example) are almost never a "source of light". For example they teach the doctrine of evolutionism and they also "believe" that Satan "is a good angel".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[gekko]

not all orthodox jewish people believe what you have said they do though...

just like in christianity - i've noticed that there are probably as many denominations in the jewish faith as there is in christianity.

for example - there is such thing as a "karaite" jew (sp?) which does not believe in the oral torah - only goes by the written torah. but does not believe Jesus is messiah.

there are lots of others as well.


but are we as gentiles inwardly jewish?
or was paul speaking directly (in romans 2 which i believe he was) to the jewish people - that they are not jews on the outside - but jewish inwardly?

was paul just talking to the jews there?
or is there something else?

the reason im not completely sold out on this is because "replacement theology" is becoming rampant in alot of churches these days. and it is completely un-biblical.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

The Karaite Jews figured heavily in SDA history in that they influence the Millerites of the early 1840's to conclude in favor of Oct 22 as the day for the "Day of Atonement" in 1844 vs the more popular one that the other Jewish groups were using.

There is a group of Orthodox Rabbis in Jerusalem that make themeselves available for Q&A from the outside world at this web site.

http://www.ohr.org.il/

They are "my source" when it comes to "orthodox" teaching.

 

[gekko]

hm. thanks for the link.

 

[BobRyan]

A full understanding of Romans 2 and Romans 9 is key to replacement theology. Basically the issue to be settled is "realestate or salvation of mankind" as the main intent for Israel.

If God's only concern was realestate then maybe they are still in the program in some way.

But if the only point of Israel was "God so Loved the World that He gave the Messiah" and this was HIS first choice in "evangelizing the World" then you have the Romans 9 and Romans 2 scenarios. You also get the "graft them in again" scenario of Romans 11 if they do not "continue in unbelief".

Have you ever seen "Davidic dancing"?? Listen to Paul Wilbur?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[gekko]

bob you said "A full understanding of Romans 2 and Romans 9 is key to replacement theology."

so do you agree with replacement theology or disagree?

replacement theology states that the church has replaced Israel and that Israel (physically) has no part in God's plan in the future at all.

i love paul wilbur's stuff. never heard of davidic dancing though...

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Originally posted by gekko:
i love paul wilbur's stuff. never heard of davidic dancing though...

Short Term Hijack

How about Shalom Jerusalem?

My favorites include:
"Stand Up And Give Him The Praise"
"In Your Presence"

As for Davidic Dancing that is one form I *do* appreciate in Church...

Though the appropriate and acceptable venue appears to be Pentecostal, Charismatic and Non-Denominational...

I don't know how much the messianic Jews partake... But, I would think they do as a form of celebration and worship...

BTW: Have a few "Liberated Wailing Wall" records... Great stuff! And, also "Lamb"...

SMM

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by gekko:
bob you said "A full understanding of Romans 2 and Romans 9 is key to replacement theology."

so do you agree with replacement theology or disagree?

replacement theology states that the church has replaced Israel and that Israel (physically) has no part in God's plan in the future at all.

I fully agree with the Messianic Jewish movement that seeks to evangelize Jews - but I do not agree that the "realestate" thing is God's main interest in Jews.

Christ's words "Your house is left unto desolate" is a reference to the curse of Solomon in 1Kings 9. It is pretty devastating.

But Romans 2 and 9 and 11 show us that "it is not the children of the flesh - but the children of the Promise that are true Israel".

In other words the literal realestate deal that they had in the OT - was simply the "infrastructure" for evangelism as a Nation-Church.

Should they once again come "to faith" as a nation, God could annoint them as a "nation-church" to evangelize - but I don't see that happening so far.

i love paul wilbur's stuff. never heard of davidic dancing though...

Those dances that they do in the charismatic and messianic churches to Paul's music is called "Davidic Dancing".

It is kind of interesting to see. Makes you think of the dancing that David may have been doing in the OT as they played the worship music, praised God and traveld back to Jerusalem.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hey SMM - it looks like we actually agree on something!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Here is why I - a Calvinist - believe "the Seventh Day the Sabbath of the LORD your God", Creator, Redeemer and Judge:

1. "In fulnes of the Sabbath midst of (day)light before the First Day of the week" Christ rose from the dead by "the EXCEEDING greatness of the power of God";

2. "Having triumphed through it (Jesus' resurrection from the dead) - "Let not you (Body of Christ's own) be judged by anyone (of the world) FEASTING YOUR SABBATHS' FEASTS";

3. For thus God concerning the Seventh Day ... in these last days ... (as ) of old ... through the Son ... did speak: And God the Seventh Day finished ALL His works" - through the LIFE, death and RESURRECTION of Christ from the dead "ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF INDESTRUCTABLE LIFE" - God unchanging, faithful and eternal and almighty;

4. For THIS Day, the Sabbath of which Jesus "the Son of Man is Lord", IS "THE LORD'S DAY" FOREVER - UNTO HIM BE WORSHIP, PRAISES, GLORY AND HONOUR!