Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Bob Krajcik · May 9, 2005

1 & 2 Thessalonians, Geoffrey B. Wilson, Minisiter Of Birkby Baptist Church Huddersfield, © Geoffrey B. Wilson 1975 First Published 1975 ISBN 0 85151 227 5

V4: Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Knowing, ‘By the manner of their receiving the gospel, and the evident operation of the graces of God's Spirit, the apostle knew their election of God. We cannot know election as in God's secret decree, but as made manifest in the fruits and effects of it. As there is a knowledge of things a priori, when we argue from the cause to the effect, so a posteriori, when we argue from the effects to the cause. And thus the apostle came to know their election. Not, we hope it, or conjecture it, but we know it; and not by extraordinary revelation, but by evident outward tokens.’ (Poole)

brethren So conscious is Paul of the closeness of this bond with his readers that he uses the word twenty-one times in these epistles. As Leon Morris well says, ‘There is a sense in which all men may be thought of as brothers. The fraternity of a club or lodge may be very real. But in the sense that matters, brethren are brethren in Christ. The Christian brotherhood is the fellowship of the redeemed.’

beloved of God, (RV) The participle beloved is `not present in tense, as though the Thessalonians were simply loved now, in consequence of their newly-acquired Christian worth; it is in the Greek perfect tense, signifying a love existing in the past and realized in the present, the antecedent and foundation of their goodness.' (Findlay) [cf. 1John 3:1]

your election, (RV) The unexplained reference to election advertises the fact that this truth had formed an essential part of Paul's proclamation of the gospel in Thessalonica. Unlike those who take it upon themselves to conceal what God has been pleased to reveal, the apostle always declared the whole counsel of God [Acts 20:27], and not simply that part of it which would not offend the autonomy of the natural man. This is an eternal election by God [Eph 1:4; cf. 2Thess 2:13] to final salvation [Eph 1:11], of a people whom He gave to Christ before times eternal [2Tim 1:9; John 6:38, 39; 17:2-12], without respect to their foreseen faith [Rom 9:11], the grand purpose of which is to redound to the glory of His grace [Eph 1:6].
Click to expand...

whetstone · May 10, 2005

if the poll was at the top u might get more votes. i have no idea why it's on the bottom

Bob Krajcik · May 10, 2005

Hi whetstone

I've hadn't noticed that. I don't know why it is at the bottom?

Perhaps there are not many votes because some have discovered they would have to refute the Scriptures to maintain their position? No- that wouldn't happen would it?

Perhaps the questions for the poll are not easy to understand, so when voters go to cast their ballet, they just don't vote?

Bob Krajcik · May 10, 2005

To assist in voting, read these verses then go to the poll and vote

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Ephesians 1:4 (KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

icthus · May 10, 2005

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik:
To assist in voting, read these verses then go to the poll and vote

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Ephesians 1:4 (KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Click to expand...

Neither of these texts can in all honesty be used to show "Predestination", if that is what you are trying to do.

For your first example, it is never advisable to use any Scripture for doctrinal purposes, where the reading of the verse is not certain. Though I too use the KJV/NKJV as my main English Versions, I nevertheless do use the Greek text.

There are two readings here, both of about equal value in textual evidence.

The reading of the KJV which is "ap' arches" (from the beginning). The alternative reading is, "aparchen" (first-fruits), which is used for the earliest converts. This reading is older than the one in the KJV, but does not mean that it is the right one. However, where doubt remains at to the original reading, it is unwise to use it for doctrinal purposes.

The issue with your second example is not textual, but grammatical.

"according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world; for us to be holy and blameless before Him in love"

God has "chosen" us in Him, "in order than" (hina)we might be holy and blameless before Him in love". The purpose here is seen by the use of "hina", "with a view to". God has determined before that those who are chosen in Him, should live before Him in holiness and be without any blame. I don't see anywhere in this verse, where the end result referred to through the "choosing", is to do with a predetermined salvation. Rather, it that those who are "chosen" would live godly lives in Him. there can be no real objection to this from the context or the grammar.

billwald · May 10, 2005

How many times do I have to "invite Jesus" in order to know that I am saved?

whetstone · May 10, 2005

Originally posted by billwald:
How many times do I have to "invite Jesus" in order to know that I am saved?
Click to expand...

One. To know it you will see fruit:

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Bob Krajcik · May 10, 2005

Well, I don’t suppose you intended to, but regardless of the sundry readings and translations, I think you have added support to what I have been saying. Thanks

I think those passages are abundantly clear

Firstfruits is sometimes used to describe begotten ones, the chosen, showing them to have repentance and faith, while not yet receiving the redemption of the body. Repentance and faith is an evidence of our election, and apart from repentance and faith no one shall be saved. But I really don’t get concerned about variant readings myself.

If those passages that are contested by some persons are not to be used, we would not have much Scripture left for doctrine. I’ll just go ahead and use what I have been and continue to pray for any that have not yet received Christ. The truth of the gospel is made clear in the multitude of translations and readings, and any variants in readings are no hindrance to our great salvation. My understanding, while the word is corruptible, the seed we are born by is incorruptible. We are born again by the Holy Spirit, and not corruptible words.

About that second point regarding the grammar. I’ll have to consider that a while. I have always understood those chosen to live holy lives were the same ones chosen to salvation. I understand there are some that claim those forever separated from God are redeemed and so have their sins taken care of already. Do you suppose it is the ones that will for ever be separated from God are the ones chosen to live holy lives in Christ?

Bob Krajcik · May 10, 2005

Originally posted by billwald:
How many times do I have to "invite Jesus" in order to know that I am saved?
Click to expand...

There might be some around that are still wondering if they have done all the different things they think they have to do to make themselves saved. Rather than just wondering how many times they have to say something, they very well might be worried if they have done all the doing they imagine is needed to make themselves saved, and if they have done it properly.

Look to Jesus Christ. He is desired by those born anew, that were chosen from before the foundation of the earth.

To that not born again, there is nothing they see in Jesus that is to be desired, but to the living ones, He is precious.

Bob Krajcik · May 10, 2005

billwald, I notice you are an old timer on the BB also, having signed on June 2000.

Wes Outwest · May 10, 2005

Does "election", by definition have to mean each individual person chosen?

Or can election mean the establishment of the means, and whoever accepts the means is elected?

whetstone · May 10, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Does "election", by definition have to mean each individual person chosen?

Or can election mean the establishment of the means, and whoever accepts the means is elected?
Click to expand...

Paul counted himself as an elected person- not just a result of freewill + elected means. Read Acts 9:15, 22:10, 14, and Galatians 1:15.

whetstone · May 10, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Does "election", by definition have to mean each individual person chosen?

Or can election mean the establishment of the means, and whoever accepts the means is elected?
Click to expand...

Paul counted himself as an elected person- not just a result of freewill + elected means. Read Acts 9:15, 22:10, 14, and Galatians 1:15.

Bob Krajcik · May 11, 2005

Wes, Outwest,

I agree with what whetstone has said. In support of the notion that election is here referring to an election of individuals, I offer this short quote. This shows a reason for saying it is individuals that are the object of election, plus gives addtional support for what I have been saying.

Ephesians, Geoffrey B. Wilson, Minister Of Birkby Baptist Church Huddersfield, © Geoffrey B. Wilson First Published 1978 ISBN 0 85151 263 1

Quote:

V4: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

even as he chose us This presents election as the sole ground of all the blessings vouchsafed to believers. It was not that they chose God, for they became believers only because God first chose them. The verb ‘chose’ ‘always has, and must of logical necessity have, a reference to others to whom the chosen would, without the choosing out, still belong’ (H. A. W. Meyer). And it was from the mass of fallen humanity that God chose out for himself (middle voice) a people whom he formed to show forth his praise [Isa 43.21; 1Pet 2.9,10]. In the divine decree which contemplated the race as ruined by the fall, God thus chose to save some to the praise of his mercy, while leaving the non-elect to suffer the consequences of their sin to the praise of his justice [Rom 9.17-23]. ‘Us’ joins Paul with his readers, and it expresses the apostle's adoring wonder at the inscrutability of God's choice, unprompted as it is by any foreseen merit in those so chosen to receive an eternal inheritance [Rom 9.11,13,16].

in him The brief phrase conveys a vital truth, for it was only in their worthy Redeemer that such a choice of the unworthy could be made. God's election, says Calvin, is like ‘a registering of us in writing’ in which ‘Jesus Christ serves as a register. It is in him that we are written down and acknowledged by God as his children. Seeing, then, that God had an eye to us in the person of Jesus Christ, it follows that he did not find anything in us which we might lay before him to cause him to elect us.’

before the foundation of the world, Cf 2Tim 1.9. This proves that our election in Christ was no historical afterthought but the eternal resolve of unfettered sovereignty. ‘Salvation is no precarious half-measure but a foundation laid in heaven’ (E. K. Simpson). The acceptance of this truth leads to an unshakeable confidence in God even as it withers all confidence in the flesh [1Cor 1.27-31].

that we should be holy and blameless before him. [1] (RSV) The ultimate purpose of our election in Christ was that we should be perfectly holy and without blame before him who is the searcher of every heart. Such spiritual perfection clearly pertains to the heavenly state, but because God's decree not only determines the end but also includes the means of attaining that end, he moves and enables the elect to persevere and progress in holiness until what was begun in grace is at last consummated in glory [cf Phil 2.12,13; 2Thess 2.13]. From this it follows, ‘First, that individuals, and not communities or nations, are the objects of election; secondly, that holiness in no form can be the ground of election. If men are chosen to be holy, they cannot be chosen because they are holy. And, thirdly, it follows that holiness is the only evidence of election. For one who lives in sin to claim to be elected unto holiness, is a contradiction’ (Charles Hodge) [2Pet 1.3-11].

[1] As the emphasis throughout this passage is upon the spontaneous love of the Father, it is more appropriate to link 'in love' with the act of foreordaining his people to sonship [v 51 than to read ‘blameless before him in love’ [v 4], which less fittingly attributes the primary reference to love in the Epistle to our secondary response.

End Quote.
Click to expand...

Wes Outwest · May 11, 2005

oops!

Wes Outwest · May 11, 2005

Whether by individual choice of God, as in, "I choose you".

OR

By means established by God, "I give you My only begotten son, and whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

Both are EQUALLY EFFECTIVE in God's redemption of man.

And Yes, both require the free will of humans to be effective, because in both scenarios, man makes the ultimate decision regarding his salvation.

OldRegular · May 12, 2005

The Holy Scriptures from the first words in the book of Genesis, In the beginning God created to the last words in the book of Revelation, The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen, are a testimony to the Sovereignty of God. By Sovereignty is meant, not simply the omnipotence of God, but the exercise of that omnipotence in the governing of all things. Similarly, from the shedding of blood to provide a covering for the nakedness of Adam and Eve to the birth of Jesus Christ - God the Son, His death and resurrection, and finally to the declaration of His return in power and glory, Scripture clearly declares the Sovereignty of God in salvation. God not only takes the initiative in salvation but completes that good work.

Philippians 1:6, KJV
6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

OldRegular · May 12, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Whether by individual choice of God, as in, "I choose you".

OR

By means established by God, "I give you My only begotten son, and whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

Both are EQUALLY EFFECTIVE in God's redemption of man.

And Yes, both require the free will of humans to be effective, because in both scenarios, man makes the ultimate decision regarding his salvation.
Click to expand...

Wes, Wes, Wes, Wrong again!

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect through regeneration by the Holy Spirit and union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God. During his earthly ministry Jesus Christ expressed this truth by the following simple statement:

John 10:26-29, KJV
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

Wes Outwest · May 13, 2005

Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Does "election", by definition have to mean each individual person chosen?

Or can election mean the establishment of the means, and whoever accepts the means is elected?
Click to expand...

Paul counted himself as an elected person- not just a result of freewill + elected means. Read Acts 9:15, 22:10, 14, and Galatians 1:15. </font>[/QUOTE]Paul was most definitely "Elected", as were all the Apostles. But the general population of the eastern mediterranian region were not elected.

Bob Krajcik · May 13, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Paul was most definitely "Elected", as were all the Apostles. But the general population of the eastern mediterranian region were not elected.
Click to expand...

What do you imagine? Were the Thessalonian Christians that Paul wrote to all apostles?

1 Thessalonians 1:4 (KJV) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

The elect can be identified by other men prior to their coming to faith.

True

False

Other

Bob Krajcik New Member

whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

icthus New Member

billwald New Member

whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

Bob Krajcik New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

OldRegular Well-Known Member

OldRegular Well-Known Member

Wes Outwest New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Useful Searches

Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

The elect can be identified by other men prior to their coming to faith.

True

False

Other

Bob Krajcik New Member

whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

icthus New Member

billwald New Member

whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

Bob Krajcik New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

OldRegular Well-Known Member

OldRegular Well-Known Member

Wes Outwest New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member