Knowing vs. Feeling in Worship

[Reformed]

When I moved and was looking for a church home I experienced too much of what Alistair Begg describes in this short video. Worship is not about what you feel, it is about what you know. There are times I have gone into worship feeling anything but worshipful. If I depended on my feelings I would have been better off staying home. Anyway, if you have time, give this video a watch.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

When I moved and was looking for a church home I experienced too much of what Alistair Begg describes in this short video. Worship is not about what you feel, it is about what you know. There are times I have gone into worship feeling anything but worshipful. If I depended on my feelings I would have been better off staying home. Anyway, if you have time, give this video a watch.

So did Arthur Pink feel vs know?

 

[Jerome]

How sad, the guy seems to have misunderstood an innocuous greeting. Perhaps a language barrier?

Dictionary of American Regional English • Alternate Ways to Say Hello

...How are you?...How you been?...How do you feel today?...How are things going?...etc.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks for sharing this Reformed.
He identifies in this short video how people who have not prepared to worship need to be coddled .
The focus and object of worship is not vertical ,but rather horizontal.
Perpetual detractors of course cannot relate to these comments. There is a very diminished sense of God's Holiness that has spread in many places .Those kind of persons do not even consider that anything might be amiss.

 

[JonC]

Regarding the subject (wonderful video, btw), the “vs.” part may present a false dichotomy in worshiping in spirit and truth. Men are not simplistic beings. Our emotions are not something that is divorced from our being, but are ontological expressions of who we are and even what we are experiencing if only for a moment in time.

I believe that worship is (or should be) comprehensive. If worship is void of emotion then it is not true worship (it is merely a verbal rendering of written truths). If worship is void of knowledge then it is not founded on truth.

I don’t think that many (although there are some…I suspect more than one on the BB) who rely on knowledge to the extent their “worship” is merely human wisdom focused on biblical facts. On the other side of the coin there are people (I do not know of any here…I suspect they would not be interested in these types of discussions) who reject knowledge in favor of emotion and feelings.

I suspect many who adhere to either extreme will hear the words “I never knew you” as both turn inwards to their own nature (either a dependence on human wisdom or human emotion) rather than dying to themselves and knowing Christ (repentance).

 

[Reformed]

the “vs.” part may present a false dichotomy in worshiping in spirit and truth. Men are not simplistic beings. Our emotions are not something that is divorced from our being, but are ontological expressions of who we are and even what we are experiencing if only for a moment in time.

In the video, Alistair Begg makes the point that our knowing should drive our feelings (emotions), not the other way around. That is the whole point. You see this type of thinking in Monergistic evangelism. Instead of leaning heavily on making a decision for Christ, Monergistic evangelism focuses on what the individual confesses or believes. Instead of the sinner's prayer, it emphasizes the sinner's confession. Does the individual understand the gospel? Has the Holy Spirit prevailed upon their heart and mind? The result may or may not be a catharsis of emotion but there will be less doubt that the individual understands the gospel. Biblical worship and evangelism echo each other in that regard. Both engage the heart and mind.

 

[JonC]

In the video, Alistair Begg makes the point that our knowing should drive our feelings (emotions), not the other way around. That is the whole point. You see this type of thinking in Monergistic evangelism. Instead of leaning heavily on making a decision for Christ, Monergistic evangelism focuses on what the individual confesses or believes. Instead of the sinner's prayer, it emphasizes the sinner's confession. Does the individual understand the gospel? Has the Holy Spirit prevailed upon their heart and mind? The result may or may not be a catharsis of emotion but there will be less doubt that the individual understands the gospel. Biblical worship and evangelism echo each other in that regard. Both engage the heart and mind.

I think the primacy of knowledge is an error. One does not "drive" the other. In fact, I would argue that it is possible to be blinded by knowledge so that one never holds anything but human wisdom.

Paul describes godly sorrow (not knowledge) as bringing repentance that leads to salvation.

I suspect the same is true in worship. One seeks before one finds. One thirsts before that thirst is quenched. One hungers before that hunger is satisfied.

I am not saying emotion is primary, but that both are equally important AND dependent on the other in true worship of God.

 

[Reformed]

I think the primacy of knowledge is an error.

I could not disagree more. If our knowledge is based on understanding the written Word, that is where our primacy should be.

 

[JonC]

I could not disagree more. If our knowledge is based on understanding the written Word, that is where our primacy should be.

I know that is what you believe. I believe you are at one end of an erroneous spectrum.

Knowledge in and of itself has led many into serious error, perhaps even into a false sense of salvation. The Word is not and can never be greater than the Word Giver.

I wonder why we believe it is appropriate to prioritize these things.

 

[InTheLight]

I understand the points he's making, but I don't think it is profitable to criticize other's worship styles.

I also thought it was telling that he admitted he wasn't quite ready to sing at 8:30 in the morning. What's the matter--not "feeliing" like worshipping?

 

[Reformed]

I believe you are at one end of an erroneous spectrum.

And I disagree with you. I am content to leave it at that.

 

[JonC]

And I disagree with you. I am content to leave it at that.

I know. That was my point.

I think it is good for discussion.

There are those who focus on knowledge (the mind) at the expense (or diminishment) of emotion.

There are those who focus on emotion (the heart) at the expense (or diminishment) of knowledge.

And there are those, like me, who believe we are to love God with all we are (heart and mind) with these ideas interdependent.

We do disagree, and perhaps others can learn from our disagreement.

 

[Rob_BW]

Is faith something that you know, something that you feel, or is it a bit of both?

 

[kyredneck]

Worship is not about what you feel, it is about what you know.

Egad, it's the very thing that turns me off with so many of the Calvinists, it seems you all have made intellectualism to be what our religion is all about.

10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto him for whom nothing is prepared; for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye grieved; for the joy of Jehovah is your strength. Neh 8

162 I rejoice at thy word, As one that findeth great spoil. Ps 119

32...Was not our heart burning within us, while he spake to us in the way, while he opened to us the scriptures? Lu 24

20 Nevertheless in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven. Lu 10

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. Jn 15

8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 1 Pet 1

13 But now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy made full in themselves. Jn 17

7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus. Phil 4

17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14

My heart soars like a hawk whenever He reveals something to me from His word, whether it by the preaching or meditation. This 'feeling' of joy, rejoicing, heart burning, from the Spirit has comforted and renewed the Saints from ancient times. If you've ever experienced it you'll never forget it.

[add]

...and I'm NOT an emotional type, at all.

 

[Jerome]

Indeed:

"the Lord has a way of sometimes speaking to the heart by His Spirit—I think not usually apart from His Word—but yet there are feelings and emotions, tenderness and trembling, joys and delights which we cannot quite link with any special portion of Scripture laid home to the heart, but which seem to steal upon us unawares by the direct operation of the Spirit of God upon the heart. You who know the Lord must sometimes have felt a strange delight which had no earthly origin. . . .I think we are not half as mindful as we ought to be of the secret working of the Holy Spirit upon the mind. There are certain fanatics who get delirious and dream that they are prophets, and I know not what. But we just put them to the side. This is a very different thing from being guided by the Spirit of God in all the actions of life so as to obey the will of the Lord. . . .One may be a child of God, like Eli, and yet so live that God will not speak with Him. And, on the other hand, one may be a child like Samuel—obedient, beautiful in character and watchful to know God’s will, praying, “Speak, Lord; for Your servant hears”—and then God will speak to you. It is not to all that He speaks, but He would speak to all if they were ready to learn what He had to say." —Charles Spurgeon, "Speak, Lord!"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thanks for sharing this Reformed.
He identifies in this short video how people who have not prepared to worship need to be coddled .
The focus and object of worship is not vertical ,but rather horizontal.
Perpetual detractors of course cannot relate to these comments. There is a very diminished sense of God's Holiness that has spread in many places .Those kind of persons do not even consider that anything might be amiss.

Well they are going to serve a lunch right after services correct? That’s the Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy crowd.

 

[JonC]

Egad, it's the very thing that turns me off with so many of the Calvinists, it seems you all have made intellectualism to be what our religion is all about.

10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto him for whom nothing is prepared; for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye grieved; for the joy of Jehovah is your strength. Neh 8

162 I rejoice at thy word, As one that findeth great spoil. Ps 119

32...Was not our heart burning within us, while he spake to us in the way, while he opened to us the scriptures? Lu 24

20 Nevertheless in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven. Lu 10

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. Jn 15

8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 1 Pet 1

13 But now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy made full in themselves. Jn 17

7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus. Phil 4

17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14

My heart soars like a hawk whenever He reveals something to me from His word, whether it by the preaching or meditation. This 'feeling' of joy, rejoicing, heart burning, from the Spirit has comforted and renewed the Saints from ancient times. If you've ever experienced it you'll never forget it.

I feel you brother.....

 

[kyredneck]

I think the primacy of knowledge is an error. One does not "drive" the other. In fact, I would argue that it is possible to be blinded by knowledge so that one never holds anything but human wisdom.

AMEN!

 

[Iconoclast]

Well they are going to serve a lunch right after services correct? That’s the Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy crowd.

No...that is not correct.
I do not think you enjoy a healthy view of the local church.
We have had that discussion before however.

 

[Iconoclast]

I could not disagree more. If our knowledge is based on understanding the written Word, that is where our primacy should be.

Of course you are correct here Reformed.
Without a correct knowledge of The Holy,we would offer similar worship to those who danced around the golden calf, in fact that happens quite a bit in our day.
It seems many want to ignore biblical directives, and let the seeker sensitive trojan horse in.
Should Paul have been rebuked in Acts 17 when he spoke of the unknown God,who they were ignorant of?
He could have denigrated knowledge and just led a song service that would make them feel good.