Kosmos

[absturzen]

I forgot about this one so I will start again with a new topic title.

OK...Seven verses that call Jesus the Savior of the world (kosmos).

Kosmos is used in many ways; the planet, the people, a realm, and a particular people. There are more usages.

Now, The Sovereign Grace folks say these passages below are speaking of the people of God. That the type of usage is no different than the usage for the world the flesh( 1john 4:5,John 15:18-19, 1 John 3:13, John 7:7, etc.).

If it is not the world of the elect then one would have to ask, "Why aren't all people saved then?" For Christ to be the savior of all the world then all the world must be saved. We know everyone is not saved nor will everyone be saved. Its not an issue of us choosing Him. Either He saved all the world or He didn't.

We, that believe in the doctrines of Grace, say He saved all the world. The world of His elect.

What say ye?

Stevie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 6:33
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

1 John 4:13-15
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by absturzen:
I forgot about this one so I will start again with a new topic title.

OK...Seven verses that call Jesus the Savior of the world (kosmos).

Kosmos is used in many ways; the planet, the people, a realm, and a particular people. There are more usages.

Now, The Sovereign Grace folks say these passages below are speaking of the people of God. That the type of usage is no different than the usage for the world the flesh( 1john 4:5,John 15:18-19, 1 John 3:13, John 7:7, etc.).

If it is not the world of the elect then one would have to ask, "Why aren't all people saved then?" For Christ to be the savior of all the world then all the world must be saved. We know everyone is not saved nor will everyone be saved. Its not an issue of us choosing Him. Either He saved all the world or He didn't.

We, that believe in the doctrines of Grace, say He saved all the world. The world of His elect.

What say ye?

Let's revisit John 3:16. Let's decide on whom the burden of proof lies!

Noman F. Douty in his book, "The Death of Christ," states thse works:

Trench's Synonyms of the New Testament
Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament
Robinson's A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament
Souter's Pocket Lexicon of the Greek New Testament
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
Ardnt-Gingrich's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the NEw Testament
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
Hastings' Bible Dictionary and Dictionary of the Apostolic Church
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Tasker's New Bible Dictionary
Harrison in Baker's Dictionary of Theology
John Davis in his Dictionary of the Bible (both Harrison and Davis list John 3:16 as referring to mankind, though both are Presbyterians)

Then Douty says,

"But amid all the divisions and sub-divisions listed, the word for world is never said to denote "the elect." These lexicons know nothing of such a use of kosmos in the New Testament, under which to tabulate John 1:29, 3:16-18; 4:42; 6:33, 51; 12:47; 14:31; 16:-8-11; 17-21, 23; II Corinthians 5:19; John 2:2; and 4:14."

He goes on to say,

"All of this is disastrous for advocates of Limited atonement. They have ventured to set themselves above the combined scholarship of lexicons, encyclopedias and dictionaries when they ascribe a different meaning of the word kosmos which will support their theological system."

In fact, I challenge anyone to find any kind of use in ancient or koine Greek outside the NT where "kosoms" is translated "the elect."

Guess what? Scholars haven't found such use yet.

It IS possible for Christ to be Saviour of the world while some still die without a knowledge of Christ. One day, every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is LORD - even those in Hell.

 

[tyndale1946]

Absturzen said:John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. For Sovereign Grace people this is no problem because the doctrine of Election puts this verse in proper perspective. The scriptures state time and time again he died for those the Father gave him in eternity. If you take the doctrine of Election and say it doesn't exist only then can you include those according to God that were NEVER included in Salvation... The Salvation of the whole Adamic world which is not only unbiblical but one doctrine Jesus Christ never claimed. All the Father giveth me shall come to me and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. I come from Heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him that hath sent me. And this is the will of the Father that hath sent me of all the Father hath given me I should nothing but raise it up again at the last day!... Brother Glen

 

[connieman]

ScottEmerson...in order to understand the usage of Kosmos to mean "the world of the elect", it is necessary to "connect the dots", to put two and two together. Then you will see! Christ died to save the "sheep", not the "goats". And it was God the Father Who named them, okay?

If Christ had come intending to save the world of mankind, without exception, then were He a miserable failure, only a "wanna-be" saviour.

He came to "save His people from their sins", and HE DID, without exception. Not one of His sheep, which were given to Him by His Father, is lost!!

The King is Totally Victorious. None He loved from all eternity, and for whom He died, can ever be lost again. In acuality All of the sheep have been found by the Good Shepherd!!

Regards, in the Name of Him Who has saved everyone that His Father intended Him to save, The rest were lost, and still are, forever!!

conniemsn

[ August 06, 2002, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[absturzen]

Scott,

I know one of his references does support the 'group of people' belief. I have to check the others. I'm not going to take his word for it.

Although reading commentaries and extended dictionaries are good (I am all for them) but they are not the bible.

So I think we, on both sides, should examine these verses in the context of the whole bible and go from there.

Now, John 10:15 says, "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

Now did he die for the world or his sheep? Many Calvinists say, "It's the same." The world spoken in this context is His sheep.

Now since we are touching on outside references; On John 3:16-17, John Calvin would agree with you...

"Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish....,"

"...And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life." John Calvin Commentaries on John Chapter 3.

Of course he includes (which you probably would disagree with him on)...

"Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith" John Calvin Commentaries on John Chapter 3.

Stevie

[ August 06, 2002, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: absturzen ]

 

[TomMann]

It is my understanding that the word world (kosmos) was used to open the idea to the Jewish people that not only the Jew, but also the Gentile, also the heathen... in fact, "elect" of every tribe, tongue, and nation were to be saved. If a limited word for world had been used here, the exclusion of the non-jew would have been considered with more radicalism.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by absturzen:


"Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish....,"

"...And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life." John Calvin Commentaries on John Chapter 3.

Of course he includes (which you probably would disagree with him on)...

"Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith" John Calvin Commentaries on John Chapter 3.

Stevie

I would agree partway here with Calvin - at he is academically honest about the use of world. We draw different conclusions, but he agrees that kosmos doesn't mean "elect."

I'm still waiting for evidence that kosmos equalled elect in koine Greek outside Biblical sources.

 

[absturzen]

I am sorry Scott. We're on two different wavelengths. I try to never escalate commentaries and such to the level of the bible. Although they are very valuable tools.

Here ya go...

Definition
>an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the >arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
>the world, the universe
>the circle of the earth, the earth
>the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
>the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
>world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
>>>>any aggregate or general collection of
particulars of any sort
the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

You can find it at....

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2889&version=kjv

You can also find it at ...
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2889

Stevie

 

[Ray Berrian]

Scott Emmerson,

If your list of contributors does not convince our readers, nothing will.

 

[absturzen]

By Ray:

If your list of contributors does not convince our readers, nothing will.

Actually that one I just posted came from Thayer's / Smith Lexicon. This particular definition is the way it is written in Thayer's. It's one of the ones the writer says denonces the idea.

I asked for verse to verse comparision.

Scott pastes in a quote with references to other books

Scott asked for one that states that the word world can mean believers.

I did.

Are you implying that now I presented one; It don't count because you don't agree with it?

Stevie

[ August 06, 2002, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: absturzen ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by absturzen:
Actually that one I just posted came from Thayer's / Smith Lexicon. This particular definition is the way it is written in Thayer's. It's one of the ones the writer says denonces the idea.
I asked for verse to verse comparision.
Scott pastes in a quote with references to other books
Scott asked for one that states that the word world can mean believers.
I did.
Are you implying that now I presented one; It don't count because you don't agree with it?
Stevie[/QB]

The one you posted states that, "Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain." The part about believers comes straight from Strongs (the plus others). Thayers doesn't have the believers definition.

The reason for strongs including this is theological more than exegetical. The question was if you could show an outside source (from contemporary koine) that has kosmos as meaning elect.

 

[ScottEmerson]

From Strong's concordance at blueletterbible.com

"8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
8b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47
1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19"

Look familiar?

 

[russell55]

Noman F. Douty in his book, "The Death of Christ," states these works:.....Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

These lexicons know nothing of such a use of kosmos in the New Testament, under which to tabulate....II Corinthians 5:19....

Vine's gives this definition for the Romans 11:12 and 15 and 2 Corinthians 5:19 verse: "Gentiles as distinguished from Jews...where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled."

According to Vine's, the "world" reconciled in 2 Corinthians 5:19 is all the Gentiles who will to be reconciled. Sounds a bit like the "world of believers" to me.

[ August 06, 2002, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[absturzen]

From Strong's concordance at blueletterbible.com

HUH? From Strongs NT:2889

kosmos (kos'-mos); probably from the base of NT:2865; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively.

That is what Strong's says.

The reference you pointed out came from the Englishman's Greek Concordance(at least that is what it states). It's on the page of the definition(way down at the bottom). These books use Strong's numbering for indexing; particularly on the Internet and computer programs.

The question was if you could show an outside source...

I did.... and you have completely ignored comparing verse to verse questions. Comparing verse to verse was was the topic dicussion

The reason for strongs including this is theological more than exegetical.

So, in other words you don't except this outside source.

...show an outside source that has kosmos as meaning elect.

The believers are the elect and you know that.

Stevie

[ August 07, 2002, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: absturzen ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by absturzen:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
From Strong's concordance at blueletterbible.com

HUH? From Strongs NT:2889

kosmos (kos'-mos); probably from the base of NT:2865; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively.</font>[/QUOTE]Okay, so Strongs has nothing about the elect. Good.

The reference you pointed out came from the Englishman's Greek Concordance(at least that is what it states). It's on the page of the definition(way down at the bottom). These books use Strong's numbering for indexing; particularly on the Internet and computer programs.

So we've got one that says elect and 15 that don't have it.

I did.... and you have completely ignored comparing verse to verse questions. Comparing verse to verse was was the topic dicussion

An outside source means literature that was written in koine Greek during the time that the NT was written. Because scholars have yet to find the word kosmos as meaning "elect" in any of the NT's contemporary literature, there is a strong weakening of your point - incredibly strong.

So, in other words you don't except this outside source.

15 to 1. There's a long list that denies kosmos means elect, and only one that has it written. It's still not an outside source. It's a reference.

The believers are the elect and you know that.

Believers are elect. Not kosmos.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by russell55:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Noman F. Douty in his book, "The Death of Christ," states these works:.....Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

These lexicons know nothing of such a use of kosmos in the New Testament, under which to tabulate....II Corinthians 5:19....

Vine's gives this definition for the Romans 11:12 and 15 and 2 Corinthians 5:19 verse: "Gentiles as distinguished from Jews...where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled."

According to Vine's, the "world" reconciled in 2 Corinthians 5:19 is all the Gentiles who will to be reconciled. Sounds a bit like the "world of believers" to me.</font>[/QUOTE]Vines states that kosmos can mean, "(d) "Gentiles" as distinguished from Jews, e.g., Rom. 11:12,15, where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled (cp. 2 Cor. 5:19)"

"ALL WHO WILL" - there's still an implication of all, and still have no meaning of elect. Romans 11:12 and 15 have a specific meaning of Gentiles - or "the rest of the world," since the writing is speaking specifically to the Jewish people. As for Corinthians, there is no mention anywhere in the context of Gentile - that is why I assume, he compares it with the Corithinians passage, instead of using it as an example.

 

[russell55]

An outside source means literature that was written in koine Greek during the time that the NT was written. Because scholars have yet to find the word kosmos as meaning "elect" in any of the NT's contemporary literature, there is a strong weakening of your point - incredibly strong.

Actually, it has not much bearing on the argument at all. The writers of the NT often gave "Christian" meanings to certain words, meanings different than you would find in other contemporary literature. Paul's use of "justification" and "flesh" are two examples.

Since unbelievers would have no concept of election outside of the nation of Israel, why would you expect to find "world" meaning "the elect throughout the world" in contemporary literature, even if certain NT authors had used the word in that way in their writings?

The word "world" is used, however, to mean "many people (but not every single person) throughout a large area", and I suggest to you that that is the meaning used in many of these passages. The "many people throughout a large area" are "all those who believe" or "all of the elect."

As for Corinthians, there is no mention anywhere in the context of Gentile - that is why I assume, he compares it with the Corithinians passage, instead of using it as an example.

He compares the Corinthians verse because he thinks a "reconciled world" here also means "all who will may be reconciled." In other words, when Paul says, "...reconciling the world...not imputing their tresspasses", Vine believes that only those who will throughout the world are in the world that is actually reconciled.

"ALL WHO WILL" - there's still an implication of all, and still have no meaning of elect.

There is never an implication of every single person in the world, because "all" is modified with "who will".
Even in the prescient view of election, doesn't "all who will" = "the elect"?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by russell55:
Actually, it has not much bearing on the argument at all. The writers of the NT often gave "Christian" meanings to certain words, meanings different than you would find in other contemporary literature. Paul's use of "justification" and "flesh" are two examples.

In Plato's writings, he uses sarx as a term for imperfection, similar to Paul's use of flesh as sinfulness. Sarx had both a positive and negative use there. Considering how common a word world was, it would seem that you could find some kind of "chosen people" identified with kosmos outside of Biblical teachings, since the Greeks did have such a concept regarding their own gods.

Since unbelievers would have no concept of election outside of the nation of Israel, why would you expect to find "world" meaning "the elect throughout the world" in contemporary literature, even if certain NT authors had used the word in that way in their writings?

Any kind of chosen people would do. More evidence is needed on your side - to just say that "world" means "elect" is merely an assertion, with little or no proof behind it.

The word "world" is used, however, to mean "many people (but not every single person) throughout a large area", and I suggest to you that that is the meaning used in many of these passages. The "many people throughout a large area" are "all those who believe" or "all of the elect."

Kosmos at its core has to do with order, which one can see through the etymology of the word. It was used by the Pythagoreans referring to the whole universe to reflect what they saw as the orderliness of creation. It has no connotation at all about 'some of a whole.'

There is never an implication of every single person in the world, because "all" is modified with "who will".

Yet some think that all are able to will. Others think that some are able to will. That's the distinction as I see it.

 

[russell55]

to just say that "world" means "elect" is merely an assertion, with little or no proof behind it.

If anyone says that the word "world" actually means "elect", then they would be wrong. If they say that the word "world" sometimes is used to refer to the elect throughout the world, then they would not necessarily be wrong, although I would chose to phrase it differently. I think it is better to say that the word "world" sometimes refers to many people throughout the world, and that those many people are, in fact, the elect.

It has no connotation at all about 'some of a whole.'

Ahhh... but the Hebrews did indeed use it that way. If they didn't, they what in the world does "The whole world has gone after Him" mean?

[ August 07, 2002, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by russell55:
If anyone says that the word "world" actually means "elect", then they would be wrong. If they say that the word "world" sometimes is used to refer to the elect throughout the world, then they would not necessarily be wrong, although I would chose to phrase it differently. I think it is better to say that the word "world" sometimes refers to many people throughout the world, and that those many people are, in fact, the elect.

And that would follow better logic than those who state that world equals elect. However, I disagree with the conclusion, but it's better than what I've heard around here before.

Ahhh... but the Hebrews did indeed use it that way. If they didn't, they what in the world does "The whole world has gone after Him" mean?

I would take that as a figure of speech there, in the same way that you and I would say, "The whole world is in love with NSYNC" or something like that. Because of the context of distraught Pharisees, such a figure of speech is understood, where such a reading as found in JOhn 3:16 is clearly not.

[ August 07, 2002, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: ScottEmerson ]