LaHaye distorts Scripture on logo of Pre-Trib Research Center

Titus 2:13 (KJV1769+Strong's numbers):

Tit 2:13 Looking for4327 that blessed3107 hope,1680
and2532 [/n]
the3588 glorious1391 appearing2015 of the3588
great3173 God2316 and2532 our2257 Savior4990
Jesus2424 Christ;5547

Let us talk about the first KAI:

kai
kahee
Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet.


Let us talk modern talk about the copulative KAI.

1) combining two different sets
2) combining a set with it's subset
3) combining two overlaping sets
4) two equal sets

I say as a pretrib rapture believer that #1 is
the type KAI this is. Two differnet sets of events:

1) the blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing

As a postie you MUST choose another meaning of Kai.

 

LaHaye also has the Pope going up in the rapture in the Left Behind series. When in Rome.....

 

The KJV, 1767 version is as follows:

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

So what hasn't LeHaye distorted. He has 11 [I think] volumes of distortion!

 

The NIV is post-trib and the KJV1769
is pretrib

 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. -2 Thess. 2:1, 2

The Christians at Thessalonica had been falsely led to believe that the day of Christ had come, that it was actually present. However, Paul corrects this misunderstanding and instructs them of things which must come to pass BEFORE "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him."

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. -2 Thess. 2:2, 3

The man of sin, according to Paul, must FIRST be revealed. Those who believe in the Pretribulation "Rapture" of the saints teach a doctrine that Paul did not teach, for they claim that the church being gathered unto Christ is a prerequisite for the man of sin to be revealed. Paul taught the exact opposite.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: -2 Thess. 2:8

What will Christ do when He comes? Destroy the man of sin! What else will Christ do when He comes? Gather His saints, both living and death (1 Thess. 4:16, 17). He will also "deliver up the kingdom (1 Cor. 15), and destroy the kosmos (2 Pet. 3).

 

The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Zion north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

 

titus 2:3 is not split coming of Christ. that scripture telling us there is ONE event of second coming of Christ. also telling us we are looking foward blessed hope for regin with Christ forever.

niv, kjv, other version are posttrib doctrine. there is no difference.

brumleyj
amem

 

Of course, Paul believed it was imminent ... As should the modern Church.

 

Amen Brother El_Guero - Preach it!

The pre-tribulation rapture has always been imminent. The purpose of the Rapture Doctrine is to call us to serve God better. As soon as the rapture is not imminent, then that purpose is not served.

Consider "a priori" odds. That is, before the first: for a coin toss it is 50% change of heads and 50% change of tails. I've flipped the coin. It was a head. Now we considered the posteriori. In this case the posteriori odds are 100% heads and 000% tails. In 668AD the a priori odds of Jesus coming that year was high - the coming of Jesus to get His own before the tribulation was high. in 689 the odds that Jesus would come in 688 were posteriori and zero%.

Just because Jesus doesn't come in a particular time frame does NOT make His coming less imminent. Maranatha - even so, Lord Jesus, come soon! Amen.

 

Don't have to explain it. Take it up with Jesus if you don't like it. God is in charge of fulfilling Bible Prophecy, we dont't need to be in charge of fulfilling Bible Prophecy unless God hires us to do that.

 

LEt me see, 70-33 = 37,
2005-33 = 1972, 37/1972 = 1.9%.
You are spinning your wheels about 1.9%
of the 1972 years that the coming of Jesus
to get His own has been imminent.
The pretribulation rapture will be imminent
as long as the Lord tarries.


Paul33: "Today, there are still events that must come to pass before God raptures his people from this earth. 2 Thess. 2 tells us what some of them are."

Don't think so. Try reading 2 Thess 2 right.
---------------
The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Zion north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.
-------------------------

 

Thank you for your compliment and your admission of defeat. You have admitted i've bested your position by attacking my successful dilineation of the facts presented by the Scripture. Never have i gotten such a beautiful consession speach so early in my delivery of the Scritpure on the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

It is so sweet I present my major argument: Jesus is going to come get His own prior to the Tribulation Day - the pretribulation rapture. I present my minor arguments. I begin to present the scriptural facts support my major contention and my minor contention and viola! - concession. How sweet it is. Amen. Praise the Lord.

BTW, we note that nothing in the Enlish "first" or "last" limits the concept to one and only one.

Every Feast of Trumpets in every Synagogue for the last 2,000 years three trumpets have been blows: The first trumpet, the last trumpet, and the great shofar. Please note that if there has been an average of 2,000 participating synagogues that makes for 6 MILLION last trumpets blown. This number is minimal, as the time has been longer and the participating synagogues larger. The last trumpet of the church age (gentile age) is at the end of -- guess it? the church age. The last trumpet of the Tribulation Day is at the end of the Tribulation Day.

For my deaf friends: The last trumpet of the church age will be the first sound you hear. If that trumpet is loud enough to wake the dead - you will hear it! Anyway, you will get a new body that can hear. What a first sound to hear - the last trumpet of the church age - better than the sounds we hearing folk hear.

Paul33: "Even Hiebert, a pre-trib dispensationalist commentator admits that "the falling away" is apostasy and not the "rapture" of the church."

Great! use it next time you are debating with Hiebert. Right now you are debating with Ed Edwards and this type comment doesn't get you any points. I am a priest of the Living God, i don't need no Hiebert as intersessor - i deal direct with God in the name of Jesus, my Lord and Master, Creator and Savior, etc.