Larry King show - Priest?

Hi Brian,

I didn't see that Larry King show with the Priest so I can not directly comment on what he had to say. I will do my best to give what I believe is the Catholic position on Judaism and Islam. I believe that the Catholic church believes that these people can also be saved through the fact they worship the same God. They just do not recognize Jesus as our Savoir and Redeemer. The church also believes that people who have not had any exposure to God will be judged on their merits.

I personally find it difficult to condem all muslims and Jews. I know Jesus said that he was "The Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through me". I know a few muslims that are very devote and pray 3 times during the work day and more during the season of Ramadan. I just have trouble thinking they will be condemned seeing that they faithfully worship God the Father. Its tough to change ones beliefs that they have grown up with.

Also I keep in the back of my mind that I should not Judge lest I be Judged myself. I kinda look it this way, showing them Christianity will bring them to the fullness of faith.

Yours in Christ
Daniel

 

Hi Brian,

I think some Catholics, including priests, do indeed go a bit overboard in describing exactly what it takes to get to heaven. The question is, must one emphatically believe in Jesus Christ and follow in His ways to be saved?

To say that those who are "sublimely innocent" of Christ - not ever hearing the gospel or having the chance to come to Him - just may be saved if indeed, they lived the life that Christ would have them do, are essentially "believers in Christ" may seem to be a bit universalistic, but the intention is to not judge the individual - salvation is the pervue and decision of Almighty God Himself, He being the infinite Lord in justice, love and mercy.

I might also add - Did Christ die for all of mankind, including those who have never heard of Him, believed in His gospel message? I think the answer is an obvious YES.

The question is, are those individuals who have never heard of Him, perhaps worship Him in another name while still essentially living the life that Christ would have them do, are also saved?

Only God knows....................

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not
thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn
away his wrath from him.
Proverbs 24:17-18

 

Will -

Though I agree for the most part, I must play devil's advocate with your response:

Did Christ die for all of mankind, including those who do not believe in Him and cursed his name? I think the answer is an obvious YES.

Meaning, he died for them for he died for all mankind. Though, will those individuals have eternal life?

Again with devil's advocate: What is "essentially living the life that Christ would have them do"? I spend a great deal of my time with Atheists and Agnostics of a very technical nature. These people are very caustic and antognistic when it comes to religion (not Christ, religion), feeling that religion is evil and the equivalent of grown up Santa stories. Though, many have a great deal of respect for Christ, few live according to his probably every wish. Many of these people are 'great' people; giving to charities, helping others and living very "moral" lives. Is that enough? How is this not a works based salvation?

Now, to take a very catholic approach, one could argue that they are simply ignorant of the real Christ, even if they have heard of him. Should they be held responsible for not "knowing" the true God?

The point is, it is hard to be semi-universalistic without going all the way. Though, the exclusivistic approach has its drawbacks as well.

I guess, in short, I am saying I have faith that God will do what he wants to do, and that I can agree with God doing what he wants to do. The problem, for me, lies in the fact that an answer similiar to that will not be acceptable to someone I am talking to.

In Christ,
jason

 

Hello Brother Brian --

Briguy, hope you and yours had a very wonderful Pascha (Easter in our Byzantine rite).

In answer to your question, my initial feeling is that within the Church, the Roman rite has really gone downhill since Vatican II. I think this is due to the infiltration of Masons, Communists, and assorted other despicable types who are the avowed enemies of the Church and would love to see Her destroyed.

In reading the works of the Early Fathers, one notices immediately a difference in the exclusiveness given to the salvation of Jesus Christ. This neo-universalism which is coming out of the mouths of a lot of Romans is NOT in line with those teachings of the Early Fathers. In fact, at one time, a rather well known disciple by the name of Origen became a proponent of universalist salvation, and was soundly denounced by the other Early Fathers of that time and later.

What is even more sad is that the attempts to make the salvation of our Lord exclusive to Christ and His Church, such as in such writings like DOMINUS IESUS, are written so badly that they sound more universalist rather than particular to Christ. It almost seems that the hierarchy of the Church is trying hard not to offend anyone, whereas the Bible speaks clearly of "the offense of the Gospel." (which is especially offensive to all who worship false "gods" and false religious systems). We were in fact PROMISED persecution if we live faithful Christian lives, and I must think that part of that persecution comes from insisting that ONLY through Christ comes eternal life. I DISDAIN this idea that I keep reading and hearing about in many Latin circles that "well, the Muslims and the Jews worship the same "god" we do"

Sorry -- DO NOT!! End of story.

As to invincible ignorance -- oh my. That's another subject upon which I could take up pages and pages. It has to do with the covenant of God and what it means to be in covnenant with Him -- specifically WHAT are the terms of the covenant and HOW does one both MAKE and KEEP a covenant with God? I think this has to do with the statement of St. Peter in Acts regarding Cornelius and his household where Peter says:

Ac 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

What does the above verse mean? If you break it down into its simplest form, it means that all who DO that which is righteous, are accepted by God. It DOES NOT mean that you must have an intimate knowledge of God's name (Christ Jesus - Savior) in order to do that which is good and right before God (works of mercy and love). Thus, God will judge each of our hearts and intents on the Great Judgement Day, not specifically our KNOWLEDGE of Him.

However, those who HAVE HEARD of Jesus and rejected Him in full knowledge will be condemned in that Day. To do so is rebellion against truth.

Hope all is well with you.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Carson once told me that if I was not baptized I would not go to Heaven.

That is not what I said, and to say that I did say so in such a way is to simplify our conversation to such a point as to falsify what I did say.

If you knowingly reject Christian baptism, then you cannot be saved because the desire (implicit or explicit) of baptism is absolutely intrinsically necessary for salvation (not the mode of water baptism itself). This desire may even be implicit, but it must be present in one's own personal disposition, which is known to God alone. When one - far from such required ignorance - rejects the waters of salvation, one cannot be saved.

One cannot be saved apart from Christ.
One cannot be united to Christ other than through Baptism.
There are three modes of receiving the one baptism of regeneration: water, blood, and desire.
Without one of these three, one is not united to Christ and therefore is not saved.

 

Hi Brian,

I believe that it comes down to a matter of accountability in relationship to understanding of God's will.

The greater the understanding, the greater the accountability.

If you believed that Baptism is necessary for salvation would you resist Baptism? I think you would not.

Having been told by a fellow Christian that Baptism is necessary does your accountability to God for the decision that you make concerning Baptism go up. I would say yes, but in the end only God will judge.

The same would hold true for non-Christians. Knowing and accepting Christ is necessary for salvation. Would one be accountable for rejecting Christ after hearing this? I would say yes.

Would one be accountable for not knowing and accepting Christ is they did not hear this. I would sya no, but again only God will judge.

Does this help any?

Ron

 

Brian --

Yes. A pretty nice Pascha, although because of my wife's illness I found myself running around like a chicken with its head cut off.

I agree with what Carson and T2U said to you. Let me put it in a personal way. There was a point in my life in which I was CONVINCED that the Catholic Faith was of the devil. I had been taught that, had been trained in hating the Catholic Faith, and thought it completely wrong in every aspect. As such, God would not have held me responsible for the BRAINWASHING (sorry I can't put it more delicately) that I underwent. It was simply not my fault and I was not responsible for that which I had not come to understand.

Then there was a time when, after a time of study, I thought that the Catholic Faith MIGHT be right and might be that which our Lord gave to the apostles, BUT.....there were still too many unresolved problems with certain doctrines and teachings that I couldn't accept. Again, God would not hold me responsible for an incomplete understanding.

BUT....there came a time, after 2 years of very intense study, that I became absolutely convinced that the Catholic Faith was one in the same as what the apostles taught to the Early Fathers, that it could be defended from Scripture, and furthermore, I could and did defend it from Scripture while not even in the Church yet.

THAT my friend, was the point at which my refusal would have been a grave and soul damning rebellion. I had been completely enlightened and completely in agreement with the teachings of the Church. To not therefore actually ENTER the Church would have been an act of WILLING DEFIANCE AND DISOBEDIENCE, and would have been judged as such.

And I KNEW IT. That was why I had to enter the Church....to be in submission to that which I knew to be truth.

I hope that helps.

God Bless.

Cordially in Christ,


Brother Ed

 

Some seek a church
Some seek a savior

I'm of the latter
I need go no further.

 

Ummmmmm....the Church is called "The Body of Christ." She is also called the Bride of Christ, therefore, if you take the imagery of marriage and the "one flesh" union, to be united to the Church is to also be united to Christ.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Ummmmmm....the Church is called "The Body of Christ." She is
also called the Bride of Christ, therefore, if you take the imagery
of marriage and the "one flesh" union, to be united to the Church
is to also be united to Christ.

Hey Bro:

When in Rome; do as the Romans do.
When in the Vatican; do as the Vaticanians do.
I'm in neither and therefore neither dictates to me.
I was raised in a cult that referred to themselves as the "Way".
They also called themselves the "Truth".
THey also called what they preached the "Gospel".
Just because they called it that....didn't make it so.
They were just exercising hopeful imagination of elitist nature.
Ummmmmmm.....I sense a similarity.
I'm done with cults.
Your turn.

 

Next, where in scripture are these ideas that God is reached by other means then Jesus (besides the verse Ed used)?

No one is making the claim that anyone is saved apart from Jesus.

I wrote:

1. One cannot be saved apart from Christ.
2. One cannot be united to Christ other than through Baptism.
3. There are three modes of receiving the one baptism of regeneration: water, blood, and desire (implicit or explicit).
4. Without one of these three, one is not united to Christ and therefore is not saved.

A good article explaining the Catholic doctrine can be found at http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.5/coverstory.html

 

Ed and Ron, as Catholics, are not permitted to believe that anyone can be saved apart from Christ. It is Catholic doctrine that one must have at least an implicit desire for baptism.

Consider the official letter authorized by Pope Pius XII (1939-1958) to the Archbishop of Boston in 1949, concerning Fr. Leonard Feeney:

"Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit..."

Pope Pius IX wrote in his Encyclical Letter Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (on Promotion of False Doctrines) - August 10, 1863:

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”4 The words of Christ are clear enough: “If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;”5 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;”6 “He who does not believe will be condemned;”7 “He who does not believe is already condemned;”8 “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.”9 The Apostle Paul says that such persons are “perverted and self-condemned;”10 the Prince of the Apostles calls them “false teachers... who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master... bringing upon themselves swift destruction.”11

9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.

4. Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon in its letter to Pope Leo.
5. Matthew 15:17.
6. Luke 10:16.
7. Mark 16:16.
8. John 3:18.
9. Luke 11:23.
10. Titus 3:11.
11. 2 Peter 2:1.

 

Brian --

If I have any kind of understanding of what was being said on King's show, the priest was indeed a poor representation of OFFICIAL Catholic teaching.

I am not suggesting that ANYONE is saved outside of being in Christ. But you have to understand how one makes a covenant with Christ in order to be saved.

When one makes a covenant, one binds onesself completely to the other in an act of THE WILL. This is most beautifully seen on the wedding night when the two become "one flesh." At that moment in time, the two wills converge in agreement and the two persons give themselves to one another. There is a complete surrender to one another and union of one another. Even though there may have been a ceremony, the actual covenant is not "cut" until the two have become one and blood is shed (think "virginity" which is the way it was intended to be by God). We see a Biblical validation of this idea in Jacob's being tricked by Laban. He went to the ceremony to be wed to Rachael, but in his drunken state, he "cut covenant" with Leah, and was bound to her, wasn't he?

In like manner, we make covenant with Christ and enter into Him by an ACT OF THE WILL, so that all those who DO WHAT HE HAS TAUGHT, even if they are not aware of it, are making covenant with Him. It is not knowledge of God which makes covenant with Him, it is surrender to and the doing of His will. Thus, the pagan, who does not KNOW the name of God, but does the WILL OF GOD, will be saved THROUGH CHRIST. This is the teaching of Romans 2: 12 - 16.

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

First of all, notice that the Holy Spirit puts the LAW OF GOD in the hearts of men (vs 15). It is written there by the Spirit of God. And if they follow that Law (which is, according to Scripture, LOVE [James 2:8] ).

Thus, the Spirit prompts men to act in LOVE. Now those who heed that prompting are acting in accord to the will of God and the Royal Law of Love. Therefore, their actions make a covenant with God through Christ.

Do they have to know every detail of Christianity? No. But they do have to unite their wills to the will of God, which is to act in Love as God has acted in love to us.

Now....to those who are given more and more information, they are responsible to act upon that information and also act in love. The first act of love is to the Father through Christ, i.e., submitting to the Lordship of Christ upon hearing of Him and His great work of love to all mankind.

Those who have heard of Christ, have been invited into the kingdom, and have turned away in rebellion, are in far worse shape than those who have never heard, for they have committed an act of open defiance against knowledge of the truth.

Christ is the only Savior. But is His salvational work LIMITED to this planet and this time reference? Or is there possibility, in God's great mercy, that the pagan who has never heard but acted in love, will be introduced to Christ on the Great Day of Judgment and given the opportunity to fall down and worship the One Whom He never heard of?

Why not? Does not God have mercy which we can hardly imagine? Does His mercy stop at death? Or is death just a maturation to the next step in our journey, a step of unspeakable glory for some and insufferable horror for others, depending upon the state of their hearts.

But no matter HOW and WHEN God saves, it is through and only because of Christ, who has laid the foundation of salvation in the Church and by which Church He saves all mankind who will be saved.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Singer:

They were just exercising hopeful imagination of elitist nature.

Ummmmmmm.....I sense a similarity.

Not in the least.

Victor Paul Wierwile's cult was started in the 20th century.

The teachings of the Catholic Faith are found in the writings of the Early Fathers 1800 years ago. These men learned from the apostles themselves. Mr. Wierwile, on the other hand, did not. He, like all Protestants, thought that his understanding of Scripture was more precise than that of the men who learned directly from Jesus and then passed that on to the next generation.

It is an act of faith to admit that we are not all knowing. Somehow, especially in America, we have come to a point where every man thinks that his ability to think makes him more important and smarter than anyone else -- hence the proliferation of denominations and teachings which litter the landscape. It takes humility to submit to the authority of another, especially when one thinks that one knows better than the other.

The apostles were promised that they would be led into all truth (John 16:13). The Church was promised that She would be kept from error (Matthew 16: 18). Those promises were not made to you or I. They were made to the Church and those who would occupy the offices of the Church -- the bishops.

If you were lost in a mine and someone came to you with a map of how to get out of the maze of shafts you face, you no doubt would listen to him. Why? Because he would be carrying something with authority with him, given to him by the owners of the mine.

The apostles were given the theological map of Christianity. Those of us who trust Christ's promises do not argue with the mapmaker. We follow, despite sometimes not understanding clearly.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed