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Law of God & Law of Moses
- Thread starter vooks
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
LAW of Moses
Deut 6:5 "LOVE God with all your heart and soul"
Lev 19:18 "LOVE your neighbor as yourself"
Ex 20 "LOVE Me and KEEP my Commandments"
Law of Christ
Matt 22 "LOVE God with all your heart and soul"
Matt 22 "LOVE your neighbor as yourself"
John 14:!5 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Deut 6:5 "LOVE God with all your heart and soul"
Lev 19:18 "LOVE your neighbor as yourself"
Ex 20 "LOVE Me and KEEP my Commandments"
Law of Christ
Matt 22 "LOVE God with all your heart and soul"
Matt 22 "LOVE your neighbor as yourself"
John 14:!5 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Moses Law is simply a phrase used to describe the specific laws God gave Moses to take to the people of Israel. They are in fact God's laws.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
That is true "All scripture is given by inspiration from God" is the claim that God -- not Moses or Paul is the real author.
in Christ,
Bob
We are no longer under the administration of the Law of Moses, but under the grace of christ!
For if we are still under the law as they were under the Old covenant, then Paul was flat out wrong, as he taught that it had its purpose in paln of God until messiah came to usher in new relationship between God and man!
Depends on the context these are found in. We cannot conclude a universal application which does not allow for Scripture to speak of the Word of God which is contrasted with the Covenant of Law.
Consider:
Matthew 5:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
I would suggest we have both the Law of God (Covenant) and the Law of God (His revealed will) in this one passage. They new the former, but not the latter. The former was the interpretation of the religious rulers, the latter it's intended meaning.
Yes, and it is primarily Covenantal in nature.
God bless.
vooks
Active Member
Thank you. Even if we go by context, we can't assume that Moses made up some laws and YHWH made up others?
I mean regardless of the 'context', are Law of Moses and Law of God of equal authority?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Let's ask Christ -
10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10
In this next example "Moses said" and "Commandment of God" and "Word of God" are all used interchangably for the same text of scripture.
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.
[FONT="][FONT="]The elders consisting of scrib[FONT="]es and ph[FONT="]arise[FONT="]es [/FONT]are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium[FONT="].[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)[/FONT]
[/FONT]"If they do not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" Luke 16
10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10
In this next example "Moses said" and "Commandment of God" and "Word of God" are all used interchangably for the same text of scripture.
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.
[FONT="][FONT="]The elders consisting of scrib[FONT="]es and ph[FONT="]arise[FONT="]es [/FONT]are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium[FONT="].[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)[/FONT]
[/FONT]"If they do not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" Luke 16
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vooks
Active Member
Nehemiah 10:29 (KJV)
They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes
You are lying BobRyan. Which part of Neh 10:29 says the Ten Commandments are the Commandments of God? That verse captures ALL Moses gave and not just the Ten
Again who told you the Word of God is the Ten Commandments and not the entire Law?
Where are the Ten Commandments?
Is the ten scripture or the entire Law?
Where are the Ten?
The entire Law and not just Ten
But the SCRIPTURE is not the Ten but rather the entire Law
Incoherent.
Your job is simple; demonstrate that Commandments mean the Ten Commandments and nothing else if you believe so
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vooks
Active Member
It is rather obvious that the Ten Commandments are COMMANDMENTS. But are they by any means the ONLY COMMANDMENTS?
Matthew 22:36-40 (KJV)
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I find it decidedly curious that the Greatest commandment is not among the Ten.
The point is COMMANDMENT is not a term reserved for the Ten at least a s far as Jesus is concerned. On these two hangs the entire OT Jesus said.
Matthew 22:36-40 (KJV)
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I find it decidedly curious that the Greatest commandment is not among the Ten.
The point is COMMANDMENT is not a term reserved for the Ten at least a s far as Jesus is concerned. On these two hangs the entire OT Jesus said.
vooks
Active Member
What about Paul?
1 Corintians 14:35-37 (KJV)
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Here, Paul writing about women maintaining silence in church says that is a COMMANDMENT of the Lord. This is interesting because none of what he says is found in the Ten Commandments .
Any instruction from the Lord is His COMMANDMENT
1 Corintians 14:35-37 (KJV)
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Here, Paul writing about women maintaining silence in church says that is a COMMANDMENT of the Lord. This is interesting because none of what he says is found in the Ten Commandments .
Any instruction from the Lord is His COMMANDMENT
vooks
Active Member
What about Moses?
Deuteronomy 5:1 (KJV)
And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Moses then proceeds to recite for Israel the Ten Commandments . So here the Ten Commandments are also called STATUTES and JUDGEMENTS
Numbers 36:13 (KJV)
These are the commandments and the judgments, which the Lord commanded by the hand of Moses unto the children of Israel in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho.
The commandments spoken here are the inheritance granted daughters of Zelophehad and not the Ten Commandments .
So clearly the word COMMANDMENT as used by Moses, Jesus and Paul is not EXCLUSIVE to the Ten Commandments
Deuteronomy 5:1 (KJV)
And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Moses then proceeds to recite for Israel the Ten Commandments . So here the Ten Commandments are also called STATUTES and JUDGEMENTS
Numbers 36:13 (KJV)
These are the commandments and the judgments, which the Lord commanded by the hand of Moses unto the children of Israel in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho.
The commandments spoken here are the inheritance granted daughters of Zelophehad and not the Ten Commandments .
So clearly the word COMMANDMENT as used by Moses, Jesus and Paul is not EXCLUSIVE to the Ten Commandments
I think you missed the point: the Law of Moses has reference both to the content and intent of the Covenant. The Content was observed by men, but the intent was not always observed. Those who observed the Commandment, for example, "You shall do no murder" missed the Law of God which condemned them for hatred, which was an internal intent bent on murder.
The Law of God "Don't murder," The Law of God "Love they Neighbor."
Moses did not make up laws at all, but conveyed the specific will of God which was specific to Israel only. This Covenant was not made with the world in general. The Gentile was free to eat a BLT, unlike those under the Law.
The intent of God's revelation was for man's personal good. Nothing wrong with a BLT but there is no question not eating bacon is better for us.
Note carefully when Christ states "You have heard it said," which He contrasts with "But I say unto you."
We have the same God who originally declared His will expounding the Word of God and bringing the original intent and meaning of His will.
God bless.
vooks
Active Member
I understand you perfectly. So we can't say out of Torah these are the 'laws or God' and these are the 'laws of Moses'.
This looks silly but I have had a friend of mine attempting a feeble distinction between the two. As far as he is concerned, the Law of God are the Ten Commandments while the rest are law of Moses. He goes further; God WROTE His Laws while Moses wrote the rest, The Law of God resides INSIDE the ark while the Law of Moses resides outside. Found it funny and utterly ridiculous :laugh:
Many like to say the 10 are in the 613. They are not. Its a whole covenant unto itself
DEUT.4
[13] And he declared unto you HIS COVENANT, which he commanded you to perform, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
No. All revelation in regards to God's will have One Author.
Where we run into trouble is when men improperly interpret the intent or impose new meaning to it. Another would be ritualizing something to the point where the intent is lost, like going to Church so much we end up going just because we go, lol.
There were specific issues which are relevant to Israel only in the Law which have to be maintained within their context. Dietary laws, for example, are not enforced on Gentiles, but because some confuse the Law with the Law they refrain from eating certain things. I knew a guy who told me in his country they cook up blood and eat it. It's a poor country, so would we think God would condemn them for this, when in view is likely a matter of survival. My grandparents went through the depression and they did not let anything go to waste either.
Cow's tongue, mmm. But I've had people tell me it's good. Don't plan on finding out unless it is a matter of survival.
That is ridiculous, not so much funny though.
God bless.
Matthew 22:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
God bless.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Some may be tempted to think of Christ as a "legalist" when they read Mark 7 because it sounds so much like the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 - but Christ is not preaching salvation by Works --
[FONT="]Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]When Christ speaks of one of the Ten Commandments He tells us that they are the “Word of God” – the “Commandment of God” and “Moses said”
The Law accomplishes condemnation for the lost.
[FONT="]But for the sa[FONT="]ved - it i[FONT="]s written on the mind and heart. The very part of the New Covenant most reje[FONT="]cted by some and accepted by others.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]When Christ speaks of one of the Ten Commandments He tells us that they are the “Word of God” – the “Commandment of God” and “Moses said”
The Law accomplishes condemnation for the lost.
[FONT="]But for the sa[FONT="]ved - it i[FONT="]s written on the mind and heart. The very part of the New Covenant most reje[FONT="]cted by some and accepted by others.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Are we now under the Administration of the law of Moses, or the Grace of christ though under the New Covenant?