Lester Roloff

[Magnetic Poles]

OK, then one of us will answer for the statements made here on the BB at TGWTJ. I'll wait until then.

It is my opinion that these allegations have their source from the accuser of the brethren.

That is not a reflection upon you brother because it is within the realm of possibility that you are right.

I think the best thing is to just leave it alone for now.



HankD

Hank, I really would be thrilled if you are right. However, the evidence I have seen point to that not being the case. Still, I hope that I am wrong.

Peace to you.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

OK, then one of us will answer for the statements made here on the BB at TGWTJ. I'll wait until then.

I sincerely trust that neither one of you will be called to give account at the Great White Throne Judgment. If so, that means that you are lost without Christ.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

From the link provided by Magnetic:

Discipline at the Rebekah Home was rooted in a verse from Proverbs: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." The dictum was liberally applied. Local authorities first investigated possible abuse at the Rebekah Home in 1973, when parents who were visiting their daughter reported seeing a girl being whipped. When welfare workers attempted to inspect the home, Roloff refused them entry on the grounds that it would infringe on the separation between church and state. Attorney General John Hill promptly filed suit against Roloff Evangelistic Enterprises, introducing affidavits from sixteen Rebekah girls who said they had been whipped with leather straps, beaten with paddles, handcuffed to drainpipes, and locked in isolation cells-sometimes for such minor infractions as failing to memorize a Bible passage or forgetting to make a bed. Roloff defended these methods as good old-fashioned discipline, solidly supported by Scripture, and denied that any treatment at Rebekah constituted abuse. During an evidentiary hearing, he made his position clear by declaring, "Better a pink bottom than a black soul." Attorney General Hill bluntly replied that it wasn't pink bottoms he objected to, but ones that were blue, black, and bloody.

Here is the kicker. Not that the treatment went on (yes awful but that is not my point here) but that ROLOFF DID NOT deny HANDCUFFING these children to drainage pipes and called it SCRIPTURAL!!!!!!

Good gravy what other LUNACY do you need to evidence this man was imbalanced??? Scriptural to HANDCUFF CHILDREN to a drainage pipe? Are you kidding me? Did someone say CULT????????????????

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Therein lies the problem with some IFB circles...the Independent part often means no accountability, no fellowship outside the closed circle. This can lead to cultic practices.

Note: I said SOME, not all.

 

[The Scribe]

As far as disobeying the law by not getting a state license...most IFB churches and church schools refuse to get one still today.

God never gave the government authority over the church or the schooling of children.

:applause:

I thought it was seperation of church and state? The state thinks it can come in and tell churches what to do in their schools, churches and church run institutions that would be a violation.

The governments of this world would run much better if they followed the Bible.

It seems many people like to defraud their brethren. When the Bible warns against this. Shameful.

1 Thessalonians 4:6 (KJV)
That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Good gravy what other LUNACY do you need to evidence...

I'll take the word of a multitude of pastors and parents who have sent their troubled teens to these homes over the word of two liberal Texas newspapers any day of the week.

I know at least 3, maybe 5 preachers that were in these homes as young men. I choose to believe those who have been there instead of a biased reporter looking to bring down a Christian ministry.

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

:applause:

I thought it was seperation(sic) of church and state? The state thinks it can come in and tell churches what to do in their schools, churches and church run institutions that would be a violation.

Actually the phrase "Separation of Church & State" was coined by Thomas Jefferson to describe a concept emboided by two clauses of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; the establishment and free exercise clauses. They say nothing about the church not being subject to the rule of law. They deal with individual rights to freely exercise their religion and to not have government favor one religion over another (or religion over non-religion). Churches must abide by the law of the land, so your understanding of the concept is in error.

Also, churches have more freedom if they don't take tax exemption. You get concessions from the government, it comes with rules.

The governments of this world would run much better if they followed the Bible.

Theocratic rule is not a democratic republic like we have in the U.S. If government cannot respect an establishment of religion, then rule by the Bible is out. I prefer what we have...government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

Whose Bible and whose interpretation would be the "official" one by which to rule? Pentecostals? Baptists? Catholics? Mormorns?

The church has thrived under our current system like no place in history. We'd be foolish to change it.

 

[The Scribe]

Churches must abide by the law of the land, so your understanding of the concept is in error.

Also, churches have more freedom if they don't take tax exemption. You get concessions from the government, it comes with rules.

Churches must first abide by the Bible. If the law of land goes against the Word of God than we have to reject it.

Also, I don't believe in taking government help. They could start telling the preacher how to preach.

The church has thrived under our current system like no place in history. We'd be foolish to change it.

America has fallen far from it's roots. America isn't thriving like it used to.
With the acceptance of homosexuality and the rejection of God in schools, etc. God will bring judgement to any country that forgets Him. As America has.

 

[Humblesmith]

:applause:

I thought it was seperation of church and state? The state thinks it can come in and tell churches what to do in their schools, churches and church run institutions that would be a violation.

The governments of this world would run much better if they followed the Bible.

It seems many people like to defraud their brethren. When the Bible warns against this. Shameful.

1 Thessalonians 4:6 (KJV)
That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

I'm attempting to not paint Roloff any different than reality.......there were indeed many people who are in the ministry today that were former drug addicts, all due to his ministry. So he did indeed do good.

But twice in the NT we are commanded to follow the government unless it violates God's laws. So the analogy is closer to......say, health dept laws about how to handle food preparation at the church dinner. Are we to say that we are under God's law about food, and the municipality has no authority to regulate that? How about building codes, when it comes to fire exits, etc.? This is what Roloff was doing...........it wasn't that the state was restricting his teaching or doctrine, not at all. They were requiring a license for anyone who locked up minors, and he refused, saying he was led by God to not be licensed.

So I find it not necessarily a crystal clear decision. I use it as an example to teach ethics and when to follow the gov't and when not to.

But I stand by my position..........I think he did not have a solid biblical foundation for disobeying the law. We can biblically disobey the law if the law demands we violate God's laws, such as commanding us to murder or stop preaching. But this was different........What the state was asking Roloff to do was within the bounds of a biblical position, but because it went against what he felt led to do, he violated the law.

That said, he was an interesting preacher that did not compromise the essentials.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Been There....done That !!!!!!!

:saint:Well.....I've now finished reading EVERY post in this thread and now that I've seen that NNE has posted ANYTHING from REAL 1st hand knowledge about Bro.Roloff and his ministries I guess it is MY TURN since I ACTUALLY WAS THERE as a "resident" in one of his homes back in 1979-80. Also,I didn't go as a teenager or a naive kid...I was 25 years old and went voluntarily to get some help for an addiction to the "City of Refuge" home for older (25 & up) men. At that time the "City" was housed in the same facility as the Lighthouse for boys so we shared dorm space and eating facilities with the younger guys. Bro.Roloff was alive and well back then (and because of the dietary rules he lived by could generally run RINGS around people half his age)and was the pastor of the Peoples Baptist Church (which ALL the homes were a ministry of). The girls homes were on the other end of the farm facility and the only time the men and boys saw or mixed with the women or girls was when we gathered for preaching or prayer at the church. Since most of the people who came to these homes came from troubled pasts and many from histories of drugs,alcohol abuse and sexual promiscuity such seperation of the sexes was wise in my opinion. Yes...corporal punishment was practiced (even in some instances with us "older" guys as well. I dare say that if our parents had done that faithfully many of us might never have needed to have gone to someplace like Bro.Roloffs. I came from a non-christian home and to this day I still struggle with some things. When I went to Texas I knew what to expect since I had talked to others that had been there before me. I am still thankful for the goodness and grace of God and the things I learned from my time under Bro.Roloff and his ministry. I actually wish I had stayed LONGER. I went there for help...AND I GOT IT. As for Mr.Magnetic Poles and others....You simply put too much trust in UNGODLY secular and state "authority" which I personally would'nt trust as far as I can spit...(which isn't very far). I will not deny that it is possible that there may have been some abuses or mistakes made since there are humans with a FLESH NATURE involved...but by and large Bro.Roloff was a wonderful man of God who faithfully LIVED what he preached and excercised GREAT FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Unfailing,Unchangable Word(KJV). I left there with an unassailable and unswerving FAITH in the Word of God that has not changed to THIS DAY. There is much more I could say but I think that'll do for now except for one last thing. I have no doubt that there have been "complaints of abuse" from some. Many of the men and women,boys and girls who have wound up at Bro.Roloffs homes were folk who NNE ELSE could or would handle or take (both male and female) and many were just plain MEAN and Hateful unregenerate sinners with NO REGARD for God or the Bible (just like the state that demanded that Roloff submit to a state liscense). In this "United States of the OFFENDED" that we live in ANY kind of "corporal punishment or Biblical Discipline will always be suspected or REJECTED by the HEATHENS.I guess that'll do for now. LOVE NOT THE WORLD......!


If you need to know more..ask a REAL WITNESS!:saint: raying:

Greg Perry Sr.

P.S. Bro.Roloff truly DID love the people his ministry served and gave his life as a true example of the Lord Jesus Christ.....trying to help OTHERS and show them how to find hope and SALVATION in Christ.:type:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Been There....done That !!!!!!!

Duplicate post deleted

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Thank God For Christian Radio

Thankfully, Bro.Roloff lives on through the ministry of Christian Radio and I'm thankful I can still hear his wonderful and edifying preaching over WMUU here in the Greenville SC area. The Family Altar broadcasts have always been a blessing to my heart. Bro.Roloff was a unique and faithful preacher of the Word of God. His themesong was an old hymn by the name of "Living By Faith" and he was a good example of that. If there were problems in his ministry it was probably because of the size and scope of it. He was only one man and due to the size of the ministry had to delegate much responsibility to others under his leadership. Under those conditions it is sometimes impossible to know or keep track of everything that happens. Ultimately the responsibility resides with and falls upon the leader but I have no doubt that Bro. Lester Roloff was the "real deal" and that he loved and cared about all those that came under his care. I met the man and saw how he interacted with people week in and week out. He died serving God as fast as he could go!

Gregory Perry Sr.:saint: :type:

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Gregory, I am glad your experience went well. However, I submit it is one thing to go somewhere voluntarily as an adult male, and quite another as an unwilling 14-year old girl. Doubtful they'd even try that type of abuse on grown men.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I guess no testimony would convince you that this man was real and the liberal Texas media was out to get him. His example has birthed many such homes across America that are still helping troubled teens to this day.

Thank God for Lester Roloff.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I guess no testimony would convince you that this man was real and the liberal Texas media was out to get him. His example has birthed many such homes across America that are still helping troubled teens to this day.

Thank God for Lester Roloff.

And I guess no number of abused children would convince you that this man set up a system of abuse of children. The homes across America were moved out of Texas to avoid state law. As for Texas media being "liberal", if being against child abuse is liberal, count me in!

This "blame the messenger and ignore the problem" mentality is why the body of Christ has a cancer upon it of pedophile and abusive clergy. The church needs to place no one above investigation and exposure if the facts warrant.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

The church needs to place no one above investigation and exposure if the facts warrant.

Tell me why, then, are the Roloff homes still in operation if they were so abusive? You would think that if the allegations were found to be true, they would have been shut down and the administration would be in prison today instead of remaining in the ministry.

Also, the homes to which I alluded were not started in Texas. They were started in other states but patterned after the Roloff homes.

 

[EdSutton]

Just wondering how many times the late Lester Roloff will have to be buried and dug up again for re-burial in the next 25 years? It's been 25 years, folks. How many more times will he have to be "re-examined" before he is allowed to "rest in peace"?

If one has a complaint against the organization and the current administrators, that is an entirely different question. Go for it, and handle it legally and Biblically.

But let's not put a long dead man on 'trial', once again. We are not talking about the Reformer (don't remember which one, at the moment) who was done this way by the papacy whose body was burned after his death, or the dead Pope Formusus, whose body was put on trial by the successor, Pope Stephen VII, and convicted in a "kangaroo court", and then the corpse was mutilated.

Enough, already!

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

At the same time, let me here say that I do not condone any child abuse, whatsoever, especially the pedophilia and incest that has already too often occurred in supposed 'church' "settings", and think that those found guilty of such should receive the maximum penalty of the law, up to and including the death penalty, and that, if imposed, preferably not by some supposed "humane" "lethal injection". Hanging, the electric chair, or the gas chamber seems more appropriate, somehow!

Ed

 

[Tom Bryant]

BTOP Brother Rolloff was quirky. But he was a good man.

His sermon "Dr. Law and Dr. Grace" is a wonderful exposition of the grace of God in salvation.

When I was at TTU, he was preaching on Monday morning. Dr. Roberson introduced him and then had to leave to go preach some place. Roloff watched as Dr. Roberson left... went over to the door to make certain he was gone and then said, "Well, I am now President of this school...." We were laughing and then Dr. Roberson stuck his head back in and the place went nuts.:laugh:

 

[Humblesmith]

Tell me why, then, are the Roloff homes still in operation if they were so abusive? You would think that if the allegations were found to be true, they would have been shut down and the administration would be in prison today instead of remaining in the ministry.

Also, the homes to which I alluded were not started in Texas. They were started in other states but patterned after the Roloff homes.

Well, actually, they are not. The state of Texas closed them down. I saw an interview about a year or so ago with Wylie Cameron (sp?) who took over for Roloff, and he said he would open the schools tomorrow if the state would allow them. There was a quirk in the law about 8 years or so ago, and Cameron re-opened them using the same philosophy and techniques that were used when Roloff was there. They were shut down again after about a year.

That said, the sermon "Dr. Law and Dr. Grace" is indeed an edifying sermon.