Let us discuss the meaning of John 6

[Skandelon]

As a former Calvinists I recognize that John 6 is a very vital passage used to support the concept of Total Depravity and the need for the Effectual Call ("drawing") in salvation. However, in this thread I'd like to explore whether this was the intent of the author:

Understanding the historical context and the audience is vital to understanding the authors intent. I think we can all agree that Jesus' audience was Israel in John 6. Within Israel at this time in history are two distinct groups of people:

1. Those who have been enabled (drawn) to come to Jesus by the Father
2. Those who have not been enabled (drawn) to come to Jesus by the Father

We agree with this part, right?

Calvinists believe and teach:
#1 are the elect who are drawn by the effectual work of regeneration
#2 are the non-elect who remain in their Totally Depraved condition (unable to willingly believe and repent)

I submit:
#1 are the Remnant of Israel (Jews who have been reserved from the hardening process by which rebellious men are blinded in their rebellion and made unable to see the truth and come to faith and repentance temporarily)

#2 are the rest of Israel who have been temporarily hardened by the Father as spoken of in John 12:39-41: 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

So, the reason those in group 2 can't come to Christ is because they are being hardened in their rebellion so that God can accomplish his purpose of redemption on the cross, not because they were born non-elect and in some totally depraved condition as Calvinists presume upon the text. We KNOW why they weren't able to come because scripture tells us plainly in John 12:39 and its not a universal inborn condition of all mankind. Its simply because they are being blinded from the gospel and only once Christ is raised up will the gospel be sent to ALL the world to draw all men (John 12:32)

Those who WERE enabled (Group 1) were made up of people like the apostles (the 12) who were specifically handpicked and chosen for the noble purpose of taking the gospel to the rest of the world. They were given by the Father for this noble cause and thus they have been more privy to the gospel, in that it is not hidden from them in parables (Mark 4) or they are not given the "spirit of stupor" (Rm 11). They are not being judicially hardened while the rest of Israel is. (Acts 28:21-28)

 

[Tom Butler]

I confess that I don't have answers, but I do have questions.

John 12:39-41 is a quote from Isaiah 6, where God calls Isaiah as a prophet to preach to Israel and call them to repentance. What I find fascinating is that God basically told Isaiah, "I want you to preach to them, but I can tell you now, they won't listen. The reason they won't listen is that I have blinded their eyes and blurred their understanding so they can't. If I gave them spiritual sight and understanding, they'd repent."

So when I see the Lord someday, I'll spend the first few years asking him to explain himself. I'll probably ask him why he didn't open their eyes and their understanding, why he didn't enable the Jews of Jesus' day. Why did he harden them so they couldn't see?

For that matter, why does he harden anybody, Jew or Gentile? He made it clear to Isaiah that if he opened their understanding, they'd repent. If God wants all to come to repentance, why didn't he do that?

I understand, God will eventually get glory from it. Just remember, all y'all plan to wait in line a while in Heaven while God 'splains things to me.

 

[Aaron]

As a former Calvinists I recognize that John 6 is a very vital passage used to support the concept of Total Depravity and the need for the Effectual Call ("drawing") in salvation. However, in this thread I'd like to explore whether this was the intent of the author:

Understanding the historical context and the audience is vital to understanding the authors intent. I think we can all agree that Jesus' audience was Israel in John 6. Within Israel at this time in history are two distinct groups of people:

1. Those who have been enabled (drawn) to come to Jesus by the Father
2. Those who have not been enabled (drawn) to come to Jesus by the Father

We agree with this part, right?

Calvinists believe and teach:
#1 are the elect who are drawn by the effectual work of regeneration
#2 are the non-elect who remain in their Totally Depraved condition (unable to willingly believe and repent)

I submit:
#1 are the Remnant of Israel (Jews who have been reserved from the hardening process by which rebellious men are blinded in their rebellion and made unable to see the truth and come to faith and repentance temporarily)

#2 are the rest of Israel who have been temporarily hardened by the Father as spoken of in John 12:39-41: 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

So, the reason those in group 2 can't come to Christ is because they are being hardened in their rebellion so that God can accomplish his purpose of redemption on the cross, not because they were born non-elect and in some totally depraved condition as Calvinists presume upon the text. We KNOW why they weren't able to come because scripture tells us plainly in John 12:39 and its not a universal inborn condition of all mankind. Its simply because they are being blinded from the gospel and only once Christ is raised up will the gospel be sent to ALL the world to draw all men (John 12:32)

Those who WERE enabled (Group 1) were made up of people like the apostles (the 12) who were specifically handpicked and chosen for the noble purpose of taking the gospel to the rest of the world. They were given by the Father for this noble cause and thus they have been more privy to the gospel, in that it is not hidden from them in parables (Mark 4) or they are not given the "spirit of stupor" (Rm 11). They are not being judicially hardened while the rest of Israel is. (Acts 28:21-28)

Was Judas' hardening temporary?

 

[Skandelon]

I confess that I don't have answers, but I do have questions.

John 12:39-41 is a quote from Isaiah 6, where God calls Isaiah as a prophet to preach to Israel and call them to repentance. What I find fascinating is that God basically told Isaiah, "I want you to preach to them, but I can tell you now, they won't listen. The reason they won't listen is that I have blinded their eyes and blurred their understanding so they can't. If I gave them spiritual sight and understanding, they'd repent."

Close, but just for clarity, he actually says that IF he hadn't blinded them that "they might see, hear, understand and repent." This is also quoted in Acts 28 where he contrasts Israel with the Gentiles who "will listen," (vs.28) thus proving this hardened condition is not universal to all men from birth, but something unique to Israel...

So when I see the Lord someday, I'll spend the first few years asking him to explain himself. I'll probably ask him why he didn't open their eyes and their understanding, why he didn't enable the Jews of Jesus' day. Why did he harden them so they couldn't see?

I think what we must first understand is that God had held out his hands all day to Israel (Rm 10:21) and desired to gather them under his wings of salvation but they were unwilling (Matt. 23:37). So, they had the opportunity to come to him but refused and thus became calloused. The fact that God seals them in that already blind and deaf condition doesn't make God culpable for their rebellion. It is like when a cop hides himself from speeders so they will continue in their sin. That doesn't make the cop culpable because the speeder is just doing what he already has chosen to do, the cop is just "blinding" the speeder to make sure they keep doing it so that he can fulfill his purpose. The cops purpose is to write a ticket. God's purpose is redemption for the world.

Just as Pharaoh was hardened in his rebellion to accomplish the first passover, so too Israel is hardened in their rebellion to accomplish the second Passover. In either case, God is not culpable for hardening them, which is the very point Paul is attempting to make in Romans 9-11.

For that matter, why does he harden anybody, Jew or Gentile?

Redemption.

He bounds all men over to disobedience (hardens/cuts off) so as to show mercy to them all. Romans 11:32

He made it clear to Isaiah that if he opened their understanding, they'd repent. If God wants all to come to repentance, why didn't he do that?

Again, he said "otherwise they might see, here, understand and repent," not that they would for sure. And He doesn't want to save people without exception, he wants to save those who choose to repent and obey. He wants those who worship him, otherwise he'll make the stone cry out.

 

[Van]

All that the Father Gives Me

ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME

Understanding the biblical concept of the phrase “all that the Father gives Me” requires careful study of several passages of scripture. First lets look at John 6.

In verse 37, Jesus says (NASB) “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” This verse says if a person is given to Christ, it results in salvation 100% of the time; all given come and are not cast out. Second, the sequence seems clear, first if God gives someone they either simultaneously come to Christ or after they are given, they come to Christ, but clearly folks do not come to Christ before they are given.

In verse 44, Jesus says (NASB) “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.” This verse says two things, no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him, and everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved, for Jesus will raise him up on the last day.

Putting the two verses together, we get (1) God draws people, (2) some or all those drawn are given to Christ, (3) all those given in this manner come to Jesus, and (4) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

In verse 45, Jesus says (NASB) “It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught of God.” Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.”
So everyone who comes to Jesus must first have heard of God, which I think refers to hearing the gospel message. Then, everyone that comes to Jesus must have learned of God from God’s message. I think this learning refers to accepting and trusting in Christ.

Putting all three verses from John 6 together we get, (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

So based on these verses from John 6 we have a working hypothesis of the meaning of the phrase, “all that the Father gives to Me.”

In verse 65, Jesus says (NASB) “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me, unless it has been granted Him from the Father.” If God has hardened the hearts of some, they will not understand the gospel and they will be unable to learn from it, is how I understand the verse - using “granted” to mean allowed. If God hardens a person’s heart, like Judas in this passage, then it has not been granted to come to Jesus. Judas certainly heard the message but just as certainly did not learn from it and put his faith in Christ. So it appears to me that this verse is consistent with my working hypothesis.

In John 12:32, Jesus says (NASB) “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Christ crucified is the center of the gospel message, so this is somewhat consistent with the working hypothesis. However, to fit, I must understand “all men” to refer to all men who have heard and understood the gospel, because the message of Christ being “lifted up” would not it seems to me to draw folks who either did not hear or understand the gospel. In Matthew 13, the parable of the four soils, Jesus explains that some people have hardened themselves, rather than being hardened by God for His purpose such as Judas or Pharaoh, and it appears to me that those who have hardened their heart to the degree they cannot understand the gospel, will not be drawn by the gospel, Matt. 13:19. Clearly my understanding requires a difference between being drawn to Jesus (John 12:32) and coming to Jesus (John 6:37; 44 and 45).

In order to accept this view as consistent with all scripture, one must accept that to be drawn means understanding a persuasive argument and accepting it to some degree, although not necessarily making a full commitment, i.e. the other soils of Matthew 13.
An alternate view, which I think mistaken, is to view draw as meaning to be compelled irresistibly. Matthew 13 clearly indicated folks could be attracted to the gospel, i.e. receive it with joy, and yet not believe from the heart or with all their heart.

In John 10:29 (NASB) Jesus says, “My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” First, the “them” refers back to verse 28 and to the ones Christ gives eternal life. In verse 28 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His (Christ’s) hand and in verse 29 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His Father’s hand. Thus when we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are in both the Father’s and the Son’s hand, saved forever. To make this clear, Jesus says, (verse 30) “I and My Father are one.” This verse, too, is consistent with the working hypothesis.

In John 17:4 we see that God gives other things to Christ, in this case His work to accomplish, and so we need to look at context to verify that people are being given to Christ for the purpose of their salvation, as opposed to something or someone being given to Christ for some other purpose.

In John 17:6 we see that the Father has given some individuals to Christ, but the purpose was for them to receive the words God had given to Christ (verse 8). We see that these men were given to Christ out of the world, so out of the “kosmos of man” God gave these to Christ for a purpose. These men believed God had sent Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah.

In verses 9 – 12 we see that Jesus asks in behalf of these men, His disciples, for God to keep them in His name, indicating they were believers and Jesus is asking God to protect their faith, sanctify them in truth so to speak. Jesus says not one of them perished, but the son of Perdition, again indicating these were not given for the purpose of salvation. Jesus then says, verse 20, that He is not asking in behalf of the disciples only, but also for those who will believe in Christ through the message Christ gave them from God.

In John 17:24 (NASB) Jesus says, "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.” This also refers to Christ’s disciples given to Christ for the purpose of passing on the gospel to the world. To be with Me, again refers to being with Christ as a faithful servant, rather than apart from Christ spreading less than the pure gospel.

If we back up a bit and return to verse 17:6, we see that in these verses, the Father is giving to the Son people who belong to the Father. This begs the question, in what way did the disciples belong to the Father before they were given to the Son. All but Judas were “of God” meaning under the influence of God, looking for the Messiah, trusting in God’s word (Old Testament revelation). From this I conclude Jesus is referring to the eleven, Jesus was not praying in behalf of Judas, and therefore Jesus is saying they belonged to God because they believed in God and were committed to following God as best they knew how.

1 John 5:1 says (NASB), “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. Based on the Greek tenses, this verse says that everyone who believes in the present has been born of God in the past. It is God who determines whether or not a person “believes” (Romans 4:5). John 1:12-13 says whoever believes in Christ is given by God the right to become children of God, born by the will of God. So if we put those three verses together we get (3) God gives 100% of those whose faith He credits as righteous to Christ, and (5) everyone that arrives in Christ in this manner is then born again by the will of God and saved forever

In John 3:3 scripture teaches we must have been born again to see the kingdom of God. In John 3:5 scripture teaches we must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

In summary, I have found no passage of scripture that conflicts with this understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

Steps 2 and 3 comprise our individual election unto salvation, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which says “… God has chosen you from the beginning [of the New Covenant] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the Truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” When God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5) He then gives us to Christ by spiritually placing us in Christ, thus “all that the Father gives Me” are saved forever.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Skandalon,
Your argument is much too contrived and artificial.
John 6:44 says, No one can come to Me unless the Father......draws him. No one; Jew, Gentile, Scythian or Chinaman. The verse stands on its own; why add your artificial and sophistic arguments?
Moreover, the reason that folk will not come to the Father is that they don't want to. John 5:40. 'But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.' It is entirely people's own fault that they will not come (cf. John 3:19), and if God did not draw His elect to Him, heaven would be entirely empty.

Steve

 

[Iconoclast]

Van,
You took the time to post in a carefully worded statement some ideas on Jn.6, and then put forth a summary. I believe your summary is in error at several points.

In summary, I have found no passage of scripture that conflicts with this understanding of John 6:37 - (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

(1) God draws people with the gospel message,

1a] Jn6:37 declares that all the Father gives to the Son
These are the elect given in the covenant of redemption before the world was.This is a very particular group of people. You speak of people in general here in your summary, so this is beginning to depart from the truth of the passage.
You say God draws/ yet the text says God gives.....so you are delibrately mis-stating the whole text right off.You are inserting your ideas of theology and replacing the God given meaning of the text. This is building your theological house on the sand.It cannot end well. You are drifting into error already.

[QUOTE (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned),][/QUOTE]
You say "some" going further away from the truth of the passage.
The verse says all that are given shall come there is no some here.

Your second error and twisting of the text is you have"some" hearing and learning on their own, believing on their own.
The text says ;

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Salvation is all of the Lord.Why not just stay with the truth? Can you see your theological presuppositions are leading you away from truth?
[QUOTE(3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, ][/QUOTE]

This again is not found in the text anywhere. You insert this wrong idea of inherant faith.

4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and

in this manner...... a wrong twist of what is written....arrive in Christ???
they were already chosen In Him, but you have already travelled down the path of error.

(5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.
Van, only in an arminian mindset...but not in reality.

 

[Van]

Hi Iconoclast, needless to say, we understand scripture differently.

You challenge the idea that God draws people through the gospel. Fine, only a Calvinist would take issue that that idea. Matthew 13:1-23 pretty much describes the process, in my opinion.

You said the exact same thing I said concerning all the Father gives to the Son. 100% are saved. We disagree as to when God gives them, and I am supported my view with what I believe is compelling evidence.

We will skip over your objects that seem to demonstrate you did not understand what I said.

When it says all shall be taught, who is the all in your view. Does that not refer to those who have heard and learned, rather than just heard. I mean it seems clear to me.

Next you insinuate that I say something other that salvation is all of the Lord. That is a slander. Salvation is 100% of the Lord. He credits our faith, and no matter how hard we will to be saved, that does not contribute to our salvation. God does it all.

Now I believe scripture does not say God does it all in the way you believe, but instead God does it all as I have described.

If you will take another look "coming to Christ" I think you will find that it does mean starting toward Christ, but means "arriving in Christ."

Final point, for you to think this view is even remotely Arminian, shows you have no understanding of what I am saying. You do not need to take my word, ask Skandelon.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello Van,
Thanks for your response.We do see it differently for sure.you say:

We will skip over your objects that seem to demonstrate you did not understand what I said.

Well Van...here is why we disagree. I believe I understand most all of what you said.That I believe it is a massive falsehood is hard to explain without being somewhat of an offence to you. I am sorry for that, but I do not mean it as a personal offence.
I was trying to react to your statements honestly and showing in detail where and why you go off....and what I see as the proper view.
I believe you are sincere.....but sincerely mistaken. If you read through my post slowly I think I have pointed out very clearly where you have subtily changed the wording to not resemble the truth.
I cannot say it much clearer.One of us is clearly wrong here...no middle ground.

Next you insinuate that I say something other that salvation is all of the Lord. That is a slander. Salvation is 100% of the Lord. He credits our faith, and no matter how hard we will to be saved, that does not contribute to our salvation. God does it all.

Van it is not slander as much as it is you seem to want to have it both ways at the same time.. You agree with me that salvation is of the Lord, but then you have the sinner doing most of the "work" himself.
It is either or, not both;

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Skandelon]

Skandalon,
Your argument is much too contrived and artificial.

That is much the same way someone from my perspective would see your take on 2 Peter 3:9, John 3:16; 1 Tim 2:4 or a dozen other verses which speak of Christ dying for "all" or the "whole world." It is difficult to view a passage from a new perspective and based on this response it appears you are not even familiar with my argument.

Truth is, all I've done is brought the verse back into its actual context to force you to consider (1) who Jesus is addressing, (2) what is happening to those people at this time in history, and (3) how that applies or doesn't apply to the nature of man's ability from birth. In reality, your view appears much more contrived when all these elements are in full view.

Think about it objectively. Jesus is speaking to a group of people who has been rebelling for generation and who are now being judicially hardened in that rebellion. He has reserved a remnant from the nation to reveal his truth to and train as apostles to take the message to the rest of the world. And when you read this text, which is speaking to temporarily hardened Jews and the 12 chosen apostles you interpret that to mean God has virtually hardened all mankind from birth and elected a select few to be irresistibly drawn to him. That seems very contrived to me considering the historical context of Israel being addressed in this passage.

John 6:44 says, No one can come to Me unless the Father......draws him. No one; Jew, Gentile, Scythian or Chinaman

I could not agree more and the fact that you think I would take issue with this only reveals that you haven't dealt with this argument before. How can anyone (Jew, Gentile, Scythian or Chinaman) believe in that which they have not heard? The gospel is the means that God has chosen to draw men to himself, but the gospel hasn't been sent to all men YET in John 6. It was being hidden in parables so Israel wouldn't believe it and repent. Jesus is revealing only some of it to his disciples but even they don't understand the full mystery until after the Holy Spirit is sent and Paul and Peter are called to preach to the Gentiles. NNE can come because NNE up to that point had even heard the "power of God unto salvation," expect those the father had given to the son...his apostles, which if you read on in John 6 is the only ones who end up sticking around...it was NOT given to the rest of them to follow and believe in Christ at this time. They were being sealed in their rebellion so as to shout CRUCIFY HIM on that appointed day, but many of those same Jews would later come to faith in Acts 2 when Peter preached filled by the Holy Spirit the powerful gospel truth.

Moreover, the reason that folk will not come to the Father is that they don't want to.

Why would they want to? They hadn't heard the truth yet and even what they had heard was blurred to them with the parables and the "spirit of stupor" clouding them from it.

 

[Van]

Hi Iconoclast, if salvation is not of works, then you have to agree that our trusting in Christ for a salvation that does not depend on works does not contribute to our salvation. It is God who either creditis our wretched, worthless faith, a mere dirty rag, as righteousness or not. Your actual view seems to be that Romans 4:5 does not mean what it says, that Romans 5:2 does not mean what it says, and Romans 9:16 does not mean what it says. I believe each and every one of them, just as Paul does for he wrote all scripture is profitable for correction.

As for you not understanding, again I said all those who hear and learn are given to Christ and arrive in Christ. But I said some of those drawn do not learn, as described in Matthew 13. I just take scripture at face value, and I make no attempt to alter what it actually says. Scripture in my view is our only authority and not the traditions of men.

 

[Allan]

You agree with me that salvation is of the Lord, but then you have the sinner doing most of the "work" himself.
It is either or, not both;

I 'think' you are confused here since scripture specifically states that faith is not a work. Therefore the fact a sinner places faith in Christ can IN NO WAY be presumed to be works for his salvation. Romans 4:3-6 establishes this beyond all doubt.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi Iconoclast, if salvation is not of works, then you have to agree that our trusting in Christ for a salvation that does not depend on works does not contribute to our salvation. It is God who either creditis our wretched, worthless faith, a mere dirty rag, as righteousness or not. Your actual view seems to be that Romans 4:5 does not mean what it says, that Romans 5:2 does not mean what it says, and Romans 9:16 does not mean what it says. I believe each and every one of them, just as Paul does for he wrote all scripture is profitable for correction.

As for you not understanding, again I said all those who hear and learn are given to Christ and arrive in Christ. But I said some of those drawn do not learn, as described in Matthew 13. I just take scripture at face value, and I make no attempt to alter what it actually says. Scripture in my view is our only authority and not the traditions of men.

Van,you say this;

As for you not understanding, again I said all those who hear and learn are given to Christ and arrive in Christ.

Van....once again you put the order completely backwards right here.

I said all those who hear and learn are given

The scripture says they are given first before the foundation of the world.
They are given before they hear anything
They are given before they learn anything

You clearly state that they hear and learn/then are given and arrive....you wrote it,I did'nt write it for you.


Those given to the Son before the foundation of the world...learn of the Father,they are taught of God himself.they do not pick up a tract and just get it. The Spirit enables them to welcome the truth of God.Jesus seeks His sheep because they are His even in their lost condition. The Spirit draws these elect sheep in time....drawing them -effectually to Christ-
This is what is meant by shall come to me.....The elect sinner comes to Christ being enabled and drawn to Him because God has made them willing.

Any other idea of this is false and contrary to this section of scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

I 'think' you are confused here since scripture specifically states that faith is not a work. Therefore the fact a sinner places faith in Christ can IN NO WAY be presumed to be works for his salvation. Romans 4:3-6 establishes this beyond all doubt.

Hello Allan,

I can agree with you that saving faith is the gift of God ,Allan. It is the instrumentality that God uses to allow the sinner to enter into a saving relationship and communion with God.

Earlier I was interacting with Van on that post about how I believe he has the order of events backwards,where he has the sinner in and of himself doing everything that would make God obligated to respond to what man does in order to be saved,rather than God's decree being the efficent cause of mans being saved from his sin and depravity.

Do you think I am wrong in this Allan?

 

[Van]

Hi Iconoclast

"The scripture says they are given first before the foundation of the world.
They are given before they hear anything
They are given before they learn anything"

No scripture does not say any of that. Note you provided no scripture to support it. But the traditions of men do say that, and since you believe they are the same as the gospel, you make the claim.

Next you say I get things backwards, but from my side of the street, your view puts the cart before the horse. Scripture says we are the "called, chosen and faithful." Now I believe that puts the sequence of salvation in the right order, but not because they happen to be in the "right order" according to my beliefs. This order is also supported by other verses, many are called but few are chosen. And since we are called through the gospel, then being called comes before being chosen, and being chosen comes after we hear and learn from the Father. These He chooses and gives to Christ.

 

[Skandelon]

Was Judas' hardening temporary?

We don't know. Some argue he might have been saved, but I see no evidence for that. MacArthur does a good job laying out those arguments HERE>

But, if I were speculating, the very fact that he took his own life proves that he became aware of the seriousness of his rebellion. Someone with a guilty conscience commits suicide, not one who has a hardened/calloused heart, IMO. I think that once he accomplished the purpose needed in the process of redemption, that the veil may have been lifted and he may have seen the seriousness of his rebellion. He could have repented, but felt too hopeless and just decided to end it??? Again, mere speculation.

 

[quantumfaith]

We don't know. Some argue he might have been saved, but I see no evidence for that. MacArthur does a good job laying out those arguments HERE>

But, if I were speculating, the very fact that he took his own life proves that he became aware of the seriousness of his rebellion. Someone with a guilty conscience commits suicide, not one who has a hardened/calloused heart, IMO. I think that once he accomplished the purpose needed in the process of redemption, that the veil may have been lifted and he may have seen the seriousness of his rebellion. He could have repented, but felt too hopeless and just decided to end it??? Again, mere speculation.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Precisely, we don't know. Scripture is silent on the matter.

 

[Iconoclast]

Van you said;

No scripture does not say any of that. Note you provided no scripture to support it.

I took for granted you were familiar with the scriptural teaching but it looks looks like I was taking too much for granted.

[QUOTE1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
but you say;No scripture does not say any of that

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching,
][/QUOTE]


but you say;No scripture does not say any of that

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ,

but you say;No scripture does not say any of that

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

but you say;No scripture does not say any of that

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

but you say;No scripture does not say any of that

The scriptures do say exactly that. Then you do this;

But the traditions of men do say that, and since you believe they are the same as the gospel, you make the claim.

You can despise those teachers God has given to His church,I do not.
They were not infallible, or sinless, nevertheless God gives pastor/teachers to His church. No one claims they are to be blindly followed. I would rather follow the historic teaching of the church ,rather than your attempts to mis interpret the scripture according to VAN.
You and others who do this claim you "only" follow scripture as if these other men had no interest in scripture at all. This is folly on your part.
You seek to minimze what I posted earlier because you cannot actually deal with what I pointed out to you.....so it is easier to diminish me personally and those men, puritans,commentators,pastor teachers rather than deal with what was pointed out to you.
To try and dismiss the whole post by saying well you just do not understand is a copout. Your weak text in MT 13 does not undo what was posted earlier.

Next you say I get things backwards, but from my side of the street, your view puts the cart before the horse. Scripture says we are the "called, chosen and faithful." Now I believe that puts the sequence of salvation in the right order, but not because they happen to be in the "right order" according to my beliefs

Actually the Apostle Paul gives the correct order right here in Romans8

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

lets see now
1] whom He did foreknow ............ before the world was

2]he also did predestinate ........... before the world was

3]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called ....... here in time by the word preached or taught,or read

4]whom he called, them he also justified ....... at conversion

5]and whom he justified, them he also glorified. ....... glorification on the last day

As long as this verse and the other verses are in the bible your ideas which oppose these truths because of your man centered agenda are and will remain false ideas.
[/QUOTE]
here again you do exactly what you say you do not do.

But I said some of those drawn do not learn, as described in Matthew 13. I just take scripture at face value, and I make no attempt to alter what it actually says

in the jn6 passage all that are given come,all that are drawn in Jn 6 come...you are exactly twisting and altering it.Mt.does not say that those who fall away were drawn as in Jn6.

 

[Van]

Amen to "we do not know, scripture is silent on the matter." So the question is why do folks divide over these conjectural views? It would be incredible to me to believe these are all "carnal christians" who are still acting as if in the flesh. Yet by outward appearance we frequently have prideful exchanges where an opponent is disparaged rather than built up.

 

[quantumfaith]

Amen to "we do not know, scripture is silent on the matter." So the question is why do folks divide over these conjectural views? It would be incredible to me to believe these are all "carnal christians" who are still acting as if in the flesh. Yet by outward appearance we frequently have prideful exchanges where an opponent is disparaged rather than built up.

I agree we (most of us...including myself) often get our knickers in a knot over nothing that will be "resolved" here on this board. Some of us have and use the "gift of annoyance" all too often both in "what" we say and in "how" we say it.