Let's give that tree a trophy for being so good!

Who said man wasn't free? We are all free to do whatever we want, and that's what we do, and we are accountable for it.

 

I'm relieved to find out that I'm not totally depraved, but I am free to be if I want to!

Gee! That means that I'm free to be righteous too...if I want to!

 

"if I want to" - aye, there's the rub.

 

Make up your mind - are we talking about freedom or ability?

 

Do we have the ability to be free?

"Calvinism makes men no more accoutable than a stock of tree. Imagine giving a tree a reward for its beauty, as if it had something to do with it. Or worse still, imagine punishing it because of the color of its bark, as if it was responsible for choosing its color."

I have a pen in my hand... I will now place the pen on my desk. And now that I have placed the pen on my desk, I will punish the pen for making the "choice" to be placed on my desk.

*Burns the pen*

 

You should know the answer to the question already. We differentiate between moral ability and natural ability. You falsely assume that either such a distinction does not exist or that natural ability presumes moral ability and vice versa.

A parapalegic may desire (e.g. "want") to walk but be unable naturally.

A nondisabled person may have the natural ability to walk but not want to and thus be unable for that reason.

 

Both. For a man without the ability to respond is not free to respond. Nor is a man without the freedom to respond able to respond. If you're not able you're not free, period. </font>[/QUOTE]First you jump from "free" to "able", then you jump to "free and able to respond" (to the gospel I assume). I never said anyone was free to respond to the gospel.

I am perfectly free and able to not fly. That does not mean that I am able to fly, nor am I free to do so. The unregenerate man is free and able to not believe the gospel. That does not mean that he is free and able to believe the gospel.

 

I'm not too sure about that. I've passed through a number of "phases of life", and each phase brings with it a greater attraction toward righteousness, and a desire that the whole of mankind be likewise drawn. Perhaps it is only a matter of facing my own mortality, but I witnessed the same things in my own dad when he was living. The older and wiser he became the more inclined to righteousness he became. I never knew my father to tell a lie, or to short-change another in any kind of dealings, and none of his associates had a harsh word about him. What a man to admire.

Granted, I am Christian, and the object of my faith is Jesus Christ. But the more of this natural life I experience, the greater is my human desire to see the whole of mankind become righteousness oriented.

Yes, I understand that may be the Holy Spirit's work in my life, but even in my work environment where I am surrounded by unbelievers, the attraction to righteousness is strong.

Perhaps if I did not have faith in Jesus....but alas if no faith in Jesus righteousness may not be a topic of my thoughts. But we'll never know if that is true because we are not equipped with a righteousness switch that can be turned on and off.

 

Both. For a man without the ability to respond is not free to respond. Nor is a man without the freedom to respond able to respond. If you're not able you're not free, period. </font>[/QUOTE]First you jump from "free" to "able", then you jump to "free and able to respond" (to the gospel I assume). I never said anyone was free to respond to the gospel.

I am perfectly free and able to not fly. That does not mean that I am able to fly, nor am I free to do so. The unregenerate man is free and able to not believe the gospel. That does not mean that he is free and able to believe the gospel. </font>[/QUOTE]If one is free and able to believe in anything, that one is free and able to believe the gospel. freedom and ability are not stifled by the subject matter. It is foolishness to think otherwise.

 

Somebody better tell Paul:

1 Cor. 2:14 (ESV)
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

Pauls statement does not change the fact of the ability God gave every human being to believe. Every man is equipped adequatly to be able to believe, and truly every man does believe in something.

The things of the spirit of God are hard for many a man to accept, because God is invisible to all but the spirit filled.

 

Lots of problems here.

First, the text says man is not able to understand...

You say that he is able to understand.

Second, you say that any lack of understanding is because he is not spirit filled.

Okay, then why is he not spirit filled?

Because man does not believe?

Okay, then why does he not believe?

Because he does not understand.

Why?

The text says man does not understand because he is not able to understand. It does not attribute lack of understanding to lack of spirit filling, nor is anything said about man's inability being attributed to lack of understanding. The text says what it says. It says man does not understand because he is not able to understand, no more, no less.

Wes, you have yet to deal with the distiction between moral ability and natural ability.

God gave man the ability to walk, correct? This is natural ability.

A parapalegic may want to walk, but he lacks the natural ability.

A nondisabled person may have the natural ability to walk but be unable to do so because they do not want to do so. In other words they lack to moral ability, e.g. desire/motivation.

In the same way, no Calvinist says man has no faith at all. What we say is that man lacks the ability to exercise what faith he has in a salvific way because he is inherently so corrupt that he does not want to do so. Thus he is morally unable. In that sense the faith to save is a gift from God, in fact it was purchased by Christ at Calvary, because God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus. Certainly then faith, since salvation is by grace through faith, is a spiritual blessing that was purchased at Calvary in the atonement.

You have yet to tell us why, then, in your view, some believe and not others.

 

I don't agree with you GeneMBridges!

 

Wes,

my entire point is that you disagree based on your theories not on Scripture. You need to deal with Scripture.

The Scripture that was cited does not mean what you say in any way. Deal with the text and tell us why, based on a meaningful interaction with the Scripture, not on your theories.

If you have a theory, then show that it is supported in Scripture or is logically infered in Scripture.