Let's Talk About "Drawing"

Good posting!

Think part of the answer would be found in Hebrews, where Jesus is called the High Priest who died for the sins, on behalf of the "many", NOT "all"...

So the all has been qualified by God Himself in that passage, and would look like "all" would refer to all that would receive Jesus as their saviour and get saved!

 

Many can also be used in the sense of all and vica versa

 

When a man proclaims something it is limited, when God proclaims something it is limited to all He knows and He knows everyone right down to how many strands of hair on their head. When God said He loved the world and wants all men to be saved it is no limits but on all His word. It is what He wills will happen that those who trust in His Son and come to the knowledge of the truth will be saved. The knowledge of the truth is Jesus, the words of Jesus, and the words about Jesus. We know the only one's will come is those who listen and learn from the Father through the words of Jesus and the words about Jesus from His chosen witnesses of Jesus Christ.

Now is the time where the dead will hear His voice and those who hear and believe will be saved.

I do believe Spurgeon about all men has said it best.

 

That is not evidenced of your claim. The Roman Empire ruled all that they knew of. In their mind it was the whole world.

 

6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day."
John 12:32 "...and I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me."

First I am not aware of anyone who says everyone has heard the gospel. At least I hope no one says that all have heard.
Second I think it is easy to take a text and not take into account other texts that are of equal value to show more light.

In 6:44 the Father is doing the drawing, and in 12:32 He tells us what (Who) he is using to do the drawing. And in 6:37 the Father does the giving and all that are given will not be cast out.

The question now becomes valid does all mean all?
The problem here is free will to reject the draw.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

The issue is in this process is where does free will enter in and it is clear it does enter in at some point based on Matt..

 

When I saw the title to this thread, I thought, "Oh goodie, art class!!" Shucks! :laugh:


Drawing in no way guarantees salvation.

Romans 10:20-21
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.



Isaiah 5:24-25
24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

25 Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.



Isaiah 9:12 The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.


Isaiah 9:17 Therefore the LORD shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.



Isaiah 9:21 Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.




Isaiah 10:4 Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.


I used these verses to show that even when Israel knowingly rebelled against God, God allowed bad things to happen. Yet, in all of His anger, He was still reaching down His hand to them. It was that they chose to stay in their life of incessant rebellion, and eventually got cut off, and us, the Gentiles, grafted in.

 

Which would make their claim correct understanding the context.

 

To put back into the origianl OP...

We would have to first see just what the Bible writers meant by their use of the term "all", and that would have to be based upon contex and entire scriptures...

Think hebrews clearly means "All" to be defined as regarding "some"

 

I can't think of any reason a biblical author would use the term "all" when he really was thinking that God would only elect a select few from every nation. (And yes, it is "few" in relative terms.) It makes little sense for the biblical authors to use inclusive terms like "world" and "all man" and "whosoever" if their intent is to communicate that God has preselected a relatively few people to irresistible draw. It defies all reason or common sense.

 

The scriptures DO NOT say all that are drawn will come. I challenge anyone here to show scripture that says that.

The scriptures DO say all that come were drawn. This is scriptural and true.

But these are not the same, all German Shepherds are dogs, but not all dogs are German Shepherds.

This is a FALSE argument.

 

Reply to OP

I have not read the intervening posts, so sorry if some or all of this is redundant.

The Greek word translated draw means to compel using physical force such as draw a bucket of water out of a well, and when used metaphorically means to attract by persuasion when referring to people. Both of the referenced verses use the word metaphorically and therefore the meaning is to attract by persuasion.

When the word translated "all" is used it always means "all the author intended. In order for the men to be drawn they must be aware of Jesus high and lifted up, so the idea is all men who hear and understand the gospel all drawn or attracted by God's kindnesses. The idea is not all kinds of men which is Calvinist code so some Jews and some Gentiles. Such a view is simply another rewrite of a verse to pour Calvinism into the text.

Next, in #2 above we see the Calvinist rewrite of John 6:44, where the verse is artfully reworded as " those whom the Father draws come to Jesus." Not what it says, since this wording can be understood to mean all the Father draws come to Jesus, a wholesale rewrite of the verse espoused by Calvinism.
What scripture says is everyone that comes was drawn, but it does not say everyone drawn comes.

The #3 question is moot since all are not drawn, only those who behold Jesus high and lifted up, and two not everyone drawn or attracted by the gospel are salved, i.e. the second and third soils of Matthew 13.

The answer to #4 is given in scripture, they did not learn from the Father, see John 6:45. Some might not have even understood the gospel, like those of the first soil of Matthew 13. Bottom line, you can be attracted by the gospel, but if you treasure worldly things like the honor of men or physical wealth (i.e. the rich young ruler) you will not accept or fully embrace the gospel.

#5 is moot since only those who behold Jesus high and lifted up are drawn and not everyone drawn fully embraces the gospel, i.e the fourth soil of Matthew 13.

 

Those that are given will come. Those that come were drawn.

This does not say that all that are drawn will come. It doesn't say that, it says all that are GIVEN will come.

Show even one verse that says all that are drawn will come, you can't do it, because it is not there.
A fisherman hooks ten fish and attempts to draw them in. Two fish fight and jump off the hook. Only eight fish come into the boat. How many were drawn? TEN. How many come into the boat with the fisherman? EIGHT. Not all fish drawn by the fisherman come into the boat. But all eight that came into the boat were drawn.

Get it?

 

So, the questions that need to be asked here are these: Do all dogs go to heaven? Or are the only ones going, are those who are effectually drawn by the Father? :laugh:

 

Through the Rainbow Bridge:smilewinkgrin: Thats your answer:tongue3:

 

But, could only those given by the Father be the only ones to go through the rainbow bridge??




:tongue3:<------------------------Right back at you, Brother!!! :laugh: