life changing event?

[nodak]

I'm curious about something posted in the music section, but my question isn't just about music so I put it here.

There seems to be an assumption today that if you grew up on rock music, church should be rock music. Same if you grew up on country or classical or whatever. The issue isn't the genre.

There seems to be an assumption that whatever culture (music, clothes, language style, laid back or formal, etc) you are used to should be part of the church once you are saved.

I'm one of those old dinosaurs from the time when it was assumed many things would change when you got saved--including often things that were "part of your culture."

Do you see today's way as better, worse, or just different?

 

[BobinKy]

When you turn your radio on, you have many choices in what music, news, or talk, you want to listen to while you do tasks around the home or at work or drive your car. There is a reason for this. Radio station operators know that most people prefer to listen to a limited number of formats. And radio operators are always adjusting their antennas to maximize their listening area (within the requirements of the Federal Communications Commission).

And if you want to limit radio to Christian radio stations, you also find a mixture of formats.

When I listen to the radio I like to listen to classical (symphonies and such) and contemporary christian formats. My favorite stations are Classical WUOL 90.5 and the local K-Love affiliate. My wife, on the other hand, prefers a variety of country music stations. When I drive her car, I change the stations. When she drives my car, she changes the stations. Oh-hum...

Yes, I think two factors are at work in the growing and dying churches of our land.

#1: People are attracted to specific worship styles, without knowing the historical or theological reasons for the elements of those worship styles. And age, culture, geography, and socio-economic class are in the mix somewhere, and probably a whole lot more.

#2: America is the land of consumerism, err, maybe I should rewrite that and say America is the land of denominationalism. Aw, shucks, I might as well go and say it--is there really a difference between consumerism and denominationalism?

...Bob

 

[preacher4truth]

bott radio network is a very good Christian radio program.

www.bottradionetwork.com

Lot's of good preachers.

 

[nodak]

I'll date myself here, I know but when I was a kid we had an element in our little village that were the rebels.

They got drunk. Drove drunk. Frequented honkytonkys and pool halls. Chased women to whom they were not married. Blew their money on payday and let the wife and kids starve. That sort of thing.

We called them roughnecks.

BUT--when they got saved, they cleaned up their acts. Joined the church. Quit going barhopping. Quit visiting "the girls".

I cannot for the life of me fathom them expecting to show up at church on Sunday and find church "just like" what they just left.

 

[menageriekeeper]

The problem is with the definition of "life changing event".

Yes, salvation is indeed a life changing event, but what about our lives do we expect to be changed?

When I was a teen at summer camp one year, one of girls that came from a rough background was saved. One of the first things she faced was another child (who didn't want her to change!) sarcastically telling her that "you KNOW you'll have to quit smoking now!" Like the deacons in their church didn't smoke on the front steps in between SS and preaching. The kid had a wrong idea of what "being saved" changed.

Yes, there will be some things that change dramatically. Your attitude will go from sour puss to joyful! You'll likely go from never being content to finding contentment (though it may be a journey and not happen immediately). You'll go from not having peace to being peaceful and seeking peach. You'll learn to be gentle and not easily provoked. You'll go from wanting to find trouble/excitement to wanting to do good and seeing the true excitement that comes from doing well.

These are the sorts of things that will change and the sorts of change we should expect so see in the life of one who claims to be forgiven. Outward things like music styles and clothing are simply preferences. One might make those changes to fit with the expected standard of one's church or maybe not. Those things the Holy Spirit will deal with as He changes the individual from what they are to what He wants them to be.

 

[nodak]

We've been travelling, and I'll confess I'm struggling with a preacher saying that "most folks find the local bar the most congenial place to be. We need to be more like the bar and less like the church when we are at church."

Now, if he meant we need to be more willing to listen to each other, maybe.

But if he meant we need to succumb to unrighteousness to fit in--NOT.

I don't dress like the Duggar women, even at church, but neither do I dress like a hooker.

That sort of thing.

So the question comes back to should we try to be like the world, or should we expect salvation to make us different from the world?

 

[BobinKy]

So the question comes back to should we try to be like the world, or should we expect salvation to make us different from the world?

Mam--you bring it down to a pretty tough question.

I do not think we should try to be like the world. But I do think we should reach out to (into) the world to spread the gospel and, somehow at the same time, deliver Christian services (works) in the world to those in need.

Nor do I expect salvation to make a person instantly holy and perfect--after all the new Christian is living in a body of flesh. I read somewhere we go through a process of salvation, sanctification, and glorification. Sanctification is the perfecting, the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Glorification is when we enter heaven. I am sure I do not have the theology down pat to satisfy all doctrinal differences. As I see it, then, we receive salvation, we are cleansed (some more than others, and some quicker than others), and we rest in the arms of Christ. Works are part of the cleansing process--but how much, I am not sure. And lack of cleansing and lack of works is one of those doctrinal differences we are so famous for discussing here at BB.

Here are a few references I grabbed.

...Bob


Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor 7:1, KJB)

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Pet 3:18, KJB)

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 3:5-4, KJB)

 

[ktn4eg]

bott radio network is a very good Christian radio program.

www.bottradionetwork.com

Lot's of good preachers.

I'm so thankful for the BOTT radio network station here in the Nashville area!! WCRT 1160 AM / 89.1 FM & 103.9 FM at night.

 

[nodak]

Bob--I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I think I am not stating my thoughts well, however.

I don't mean we expect folks newly saved to be completely matured. What I am speaking of is what we teach them regarding new birth. Seems some are wanting to teach them it can be added on to any lifestyle. Expect no changes. If they are used to dressing like streetwalkers and bopping around to the music, we make church like that to attract them and make them comfortable. If they are used to flipflops, cut offs, bikinis, and surfing we do church that way.

It is hard to put into words, but I guess I am asking should the church seek to be LIKE the world, or should the church teach following Jesus in salvation means a break FROM the world?

I remember an evangelist who came to our little church when I was young. This guy would go in bars, not drink alcohol or smoke or play around, and lead folks to the Lord and out of that lifestyle.

Now we have some suggesting instead of church services we should set up the tables, dim the lights, chill the beer, set out the ashtrays, rev up the band, and call it church.

I fall somewhere in the middle--hang out with the lost? YES! Imitate them? NO!

 

[BobinKy]

I am asking should the church seek to be LIKE the world, or should the church teach following Jesus in salvation means a break FROM the world?

Nodak...

I think the church should teach that following Jesus in salvation means we break from the world. Christians need a place separate from the world. We are spiritually different from those in the world and that should show in how and where we live out our lives.

Here is another Biblical reference for you. Normally, I quote the KJB during the 400th celebration as my personal token of respect toward the KJB (through Dec 2011). However, in this particular instance, I think the NLT2007 delivers a rendering with more clarity. I have also included a side bar from the NLT Study Bible: The Church As God's Temple.

...Bob

SCRIPTURE

2 Cor 6:14-7:1; NLT 2007 (cross references omitted)

The Temple of the Living God
14 Don’t team up with those who are unbelievers. How can righteousness be a partner with wickedness? How can light live with darkness? 15 What harmony can there be between Christ and the devil? How can a believer be a partner with an unbeliever? 16 And what union can there be between God’s temple and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God said:

“I will live in them
and walk among them.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
17 Therefore, come out from among unbelievers,
and separate yourselves from them, says the Lord.
Don’t touch their filthy things,
and I will welcome you.
18 And I will be your Father,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.”

7: 1 Because we have these promises, dear friends, let us cleanse ourselves from everything that can defile our body or spirit. And let us work toward complete holiness because we fear God.


. . .


NLT STUDY BIBLE SIDEBAR

THE CHURCH AS GOD’S TEMPLE (2 Cor 6:14-7:1; p. 1965)

There are several pictures of the church as God’s people. In 6:14–7:1, Paul portrays the church as the temple of God—a worshiping people whose dedication to God separates them from all that is not like him.

The imagery of the church as the temple of God has its roots in the OT. The promise to David and Solomon was that the Temple in Jerusalem would be a foretaste of God’s abiding presence with his people (see 2 Sam 7:12-16; 1 Kgs 9:1-9). That Temple was completed in 960 BC, then destroyed in 586 BC. But the prophets of Israel looked forward to a new temple; they announced a message of hope that God would once again live among his people (see, e.g., Isa 56:7; Ezek 40:1–43:27). All these hopes were made good in the coming of Jesus (see John 1:14; 2:19-22; 4:21-24). He himself is God’s temple, the place where God’s holiness resides, and he calls his people to join him. Thus, God’s people are to be a holy temple of God (see 6:16; 1 Cor 3:16-17; 6:19; Eph 2:21; 1 Pet 2:5; Rev 3:12).

Paul called on the Corinthians to realize their identity as God’s “holy people” (1:1) in two ways: They were to separate themselves from moral evil, and they were to be dedicated to God in holy living and service. Christians are therefore urged, “Let us cleanse ourselves from everything that can defile our body or spirit. And let us work toward complete holiness because we fear God” (7:1).​

 

[annsni]

Well, the question is, when we're saved, do we change our life's preferences for everything? Do we now eat different food? Use different deoderant? Drive a different car?

I don't think music makes or breaks someone - unless the content is poor. As Christians, we will still read - but what we read changes usually. We change the kind of movies we see/will tolerate. So while I prefer more "rock" style music, it doesn't mean that I'm not saved or changed completely inside. It's just my preferred style of music.

 

[Gina B]

I'm curious about something posted in the music section, but my question isn't just about music so I put it here.

There seems to be an assumption today that if you grew up on rock music, church should be rock music. Same if you grew up on country or classical or whatever. The issue isn't the genre.

There seems to be an assumption that whatever culture (music, clothes, language style, laid back or formal, etc) you are used to should be part of the church once you are saved.

I'm one of those old dinosaurs from the time when it was assumed many things would change when you got saved--including often things that were "part of your culture."

Do you see today's way as better, worse, or just different?

I'd have to say just different. Maybe even better, because culture changes and there's no spiritual benefit or reason for the church to stay within the style and culture of the past IF they are not worldly. Many seem to mistake anything modern or different from 50 years ago as being worldly and thus somehow sinful when it's simply different.

Although I've never heard anyone say anyone SHOULD join a church based on their style of music and/or adherence to modern culture. That would be a really dumb and wrong thing to tell someone.

 

[nodak]

And just to be clear: I'm not one who believes you must clean up your act to GET saved, to STAY saved, or to PROVE your salvation.

But I do think it unfair not to tell folks that if the Lord saves them, HE is going to want to clean up their act.

 

[HAMel]

nodak, I don't think you would be all that comfortable wearing the style of clothes to church that your grandfather was accustomed to in his youth. So it is with music.

Music in church should be of such caliber that it bringing glory to the Lord. End of subject.

A youth of today can see where "RAP Music" could bring glory to the Lord? Us old timers couldn't handle it but how do we make youth of today conform to our ways? You can't..., short of a rebellion.

 

[nodak]

HAMel--obviously I haven't phrased my questioning clearly.

Rap music as is done on the streets, with vulgar language and gestures, has no place in church. Period.

Now, rap STYLE music, with cleaned up lyrics and no vile gestures could of course be used.

Point being, whatever culture we speak of, it has to be brought into purity to be used in the church.

I happen to favor country--but let me assure you, I would walk right out the door if the usual honkytonk lyrics and suggestive body moves were done by the praise team.

 

[HAMel]

Rap music as is done on the streets, with vulgar language and gestures, has no place in church. Period.

Point being, whatever culture we speak of, it has to be brought into purity to be used in the church.

Of course. We can't have street lyrics in church. That's a given.

 

[annsni]

For those speaking of rap, have you heard of Lecrae? He's an amazing young man with a great heart for the Lord. I met him last year and was very impressed.

 

[nodak]

Now the hard question:

if a particular aspect of culture (dress, hair, music, whatever, it doesn't matter) in a particular geographic setting is totally associated with embracing a sinful rebellious lifestyle, is it reasonable to expect folks to walk away from that aspect of culture when they get saved?

So we don't get hung up on cultural things we happen to like, let's make it nonsense. Let's say all the really cool people, and most of everyone else since they want to be cool, like painting their noses purple in your town. A purple nose, however, is also seen as the face painting equivalent as advertizing one's readiness to engage in Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky activities.

OBVIOUSLY, one can paint one's nose purple and live morally pure. But that IS the cultural connotation.

So do we hand folks a towel when we lead them to Christ?