Surprise, surprise Lifeway and Jimmy Draper are endorsing a line of copiers for Toshiba and sending out mailers to churches informing them of the great deals they can get on a copier. I was assured through the flier that if I was to buy a copier through Lifeway the profit would go to directly to funding SBC "causes". I could hardly believe what I was reading! I get stuff all the time from companies trying to sell me stuff, don't have a problem with that, these are businesses trying to make a profit. What ticks me off is that Lifeway is doing this under the guise of ministry, "Hey guys we are helping you, we are concerned about you", my @!?* they are helping us. One of the copiers they wanted me to buy cost over $3000.00! Yeah like the average church (about 100) can afford a $3000.00 copier. Sorry, we don't have material for you this year, but look how clear the bulletin is! What they did was see is see another market a chance to make some more money to sell to the churches, stinking money changers. No thought about the relationship you may have with a local copier company in the town you live in, just buy our copier it has to be better and more spiritual Jimmmy Draper says so. Hey next they will give an extra 10% discount if you sign the BF&M 2000. This is bad on so many levels. Also, I think it was Toshiba that got into trouble with the US Government for selling technology to the wrong people, but will have to check on that.
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Lifeway hocking copiers for Toshiba
- Thread starter go2church
- Start date
David Cooke Jr
New Member
Toshiba will be the offical copier of the BF&M. If you don't affirm the BF&M as copied by Toshiba, then you cannot serve as a trustee or employee for any SBC agency. Of course that is for the 2000 BF&M. The 1998 BF&M had to be affirmed on a Canon copy. There are all sorts of theological issues relating to copies of Toshiba copies, and whether an affirmation had to be made from an original autograph. Some say only the Toshiba copies are inerrant. My Daddy remembers affirming the 1963 BF&M, back when every copy was called a "Xerox". My granddaddy affirmed the 1925 BF&M on a handwritten copy, but would not do so in writing so everybody knows he's a heretic (He wouldn't sign the 2000 BF&M either-what is he, a Unitarian?).
The biddings have already started for which copier gets to do the 2003 BF&M, subtitled "the sequel: this time its personal". The winning copier company gets to write the BF&M for us. No one knows for sure what it will say, but I have it on good authority from current SBC seminary presidents that it will be inerrant.
Note to churches who think they can't afford the "offical" copier: You better raise the money now. I hear your messengers won't be seated at the convention unless you have a receipt.
The biddings have already started for which copier gets to do the 2003 BF&M, subtitled "the sequel: this time its personal". The winning copier company gets to write the BF&M for us. No one knows for sure what it will say, but I have it on good authority from current SBC seminary presidents that it will be inerrant.
Note to churches who think they can't afford the "offical" copier: You better raise the money now. I hear your messengers won't be seated at the convention unless you have a receipt.
All about Grace
New Member
Mod/libs find no limits on ways to criticize the denomination that paid over half their seminary tuition (if they attended a SBC institution). Did you happen to call your local Toshiba dealer and try and buy the same copier for less than $3000? And even if you can, does that mean you have been forced to buy thru Lifeway? Let me give you a little advice: Buy any copier you want and can afford thru any company or dealer that you prefer.
well, what can I say accept I need to throw y'all a life perserver because y'all have fallen overboard. Chill out, Lifeway is a company that sells things. They didn't say you had to buy it. They didn't say anything about the BF&M. All they did was send you an advertisement. If they sent you an ad for a copier for $1.00 would you be crying these conspiracy theories. No you would buy it. You can't afford or don't want to pay $3000.00 for one, well I don't blame you. I wouldn't pay that much either, but don't get all hostile and try to interject non-related issues. Here is what you should do, don't buy it!
"Lifeway is just a business that sells things"
That is the problem, it didn't always have the goal of JUST making money, there used to be a real commitment to providing good, baptist resources to SBC churches. With all the changes Lifeway has undergone, I am not so sure that this is the case. This copier stuff is just another example of the move from a ministry focus to a profit focus on the part of the Lifeway leadership.
Who said I was a mod/liberal, it wasn't me.
By the way, when did calling into question the leadership that is suppossed to be working on my behalf classify someone as a mod/liberal? I have my own opinions, thoughts and convictions I don't call Paige or Albert and ask them what I should think.
That is the problem, it didn't always have the goal of JUST making money, there used to be a real commitment to providing good, baptist resources to SBC churches. With all the changes Lifeway has undergone, I am not so sure that this is the case. This copier stuff is just another example of the move from a ministry focus to a profit focus on the part of the Lifeway leadership.
Who said I was a mod/liberal, it wasn't me.
By the way, when did calling into question the leadership that is suppossed to be working on my behalf classify someone as a mod/liberal? I have my own opinions, thoughts and convictions I don't call Paige or Albert and ask them what I should think.
I have been in Lifeway many times, I may find some books I don't agree with, but when you have a book on arminians and on calvinism (not that I am either) someone will be left out. All in all the materials I see published by them are Scripturally accurate. To me accuracy of Scripture use makes it a good material for use. I have heard a rep of their's speak once and that seemed to be a focus point.
As far as making money, they are able to complete support themselves without accepting one single cooperative prodgram dollar or from the SBC, they actually give alot of money to the SBC. I think if the company was running in the red that would be a example of poor stewardship of the Lord's ministry tools they have. They are probably the largest producer of Christian materials.
Scripturally accurate, financially sound and productive. These all sound like a solid ground for a Christian company to be on. Do you not agree? If not, what specifically do you not like?
As far as making money, they are able to complete support themselves without accepting one single cooperative prodgram dollar or from the SBC, they actually give alot of money to the SBC. I think if the company was running in the red that would be a example of poor stewardship of the Lord's ministry tools they have. They are probably the largest producer of Christian materials.
Scripturally accurate, financially sound and productive. These all sound like a solid ground for a Christian company to be on. Do you not agree? If not, what specifically do you not like?
Personal Opinion from a non-SBC'er:
A publishing company that is intergrally tied to the SBC as Lifeway is should NOT be "just another business". It should be held to a different (higher) standard.
If judgment doesn't begin in the house of God, where will it begin? Enron? Washington DC?
I think not.
A publishing company that is intergrally tied to the SBC as Lifeway is should NOT be "just another business". It should be held to a different (higher) standard.
If judgment doesn't begin in the house of God, where will it begin? Enron? Washington DC?
I think not.
And just listen to the plug:
"Profits will go toward SBC causes." Money that is solicited in such a way smacks of the tables of the money-changers in the Temple.
The SBC for a long time has had a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof looking to the world for the power to fulfill the Great Commission.
VBS is a prime example:
Ocean "Apostasy"
Truth "Lackers"
and now
"Apollyon" Outfitters.
"Profits will go toward SBC causes." Money that is solicited in such a way smacks of the tables of the money-changers in the Temple.
The SBC for a long time has had a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof looking to the world for the power to fulfill the Great Commission.
VBS is a prime example:
Ocean "Apostasy"
Truth "Lackers"
and now
"Apollyon" Outfitters.
All about Grace
New Member
Your antagonism toward the SBC leadership & BFM2K gives you away.
I stand to be corrected.
Simply answer a direct question -- do you agree with the present direction of the SBC?
I stand to be corrected.
Simply answer a direct question -- do you agree with the present direction of the SBC?
All about Grace
New Member
Sorry I am still trying to figure out how to use Baptist Board when responding to a direct quote.
The above message is a response to go2church's question who said I was a mod/lib?
The above message is a response to go2church's question who said I was a mod/lib?
All about Grace
New Member
Aaron,
You have got to be kidding me. VBS is a worldly method? Give me a break.
Remember methods constantly change but the message remains the same.
If you are sitting on padded pews and under the cool of A/C and listening to a piano/organ and a preacher using a microphone on a given Sunday then do not talk to me about employing methods.
You have got to be kidding me. VBS is a worldly method? Give me a break.
Remember methods constantly change but the message remains the same.
If you are sitting on padded pews and under the cool of A/C and listening to a piano/organ and a preacher using a microphone on a given Sunday then do not talk to me about employing methods.
The recent trends in VBS are worldly.
And let us put to rest once and for all this attempt to parallel sensual communications with earthly comforts. Neither air conditioning nor seats are used to communicate the Gospel. Their purpose is to facilitate the physical comfort of those in its hearing in order to minimize distractions. But even that can be overdone. I would give up pews and air conditioning in a minute if they began to distract me or others.
I don't even have air conditioning in my home.
And let us put to rest once and for all this attempt to parallel sensual communications with earthly comforts. Neither air conditioning nor seats are used to communicate the Gospel. Their purpose is to facilitate the physical comfort of those in its hearing in order to minimize distractions. But even that can be overdone. I would give up pews and air conditioning in a minute if they began to distract me or others.
I don't even have air conditioning in my home.
Aaron,
What is your beef with "Amazon Outfitters"?
I thought that the lessons this year were great! We taught the children about Jesus and His healings, his teachings, his resurrection, and his salvation power.
We even taught them a little about Elijah and Peter.
What, specifically, is your objection?
Peace-
YSIC
Scarlett O.
<><
What is your beef with "Amazon Outfitters"?
I thought that the lessons this year were great! We taught the children about Jesus and His healings, his teachings, his resurrection, and his salvation power.
We even taught them a little about Elijah and Peter.
What, specifically, is your objection?
Peace-
YSIC
Scarlett O.
<><
All about Grace
New Member
Can you explain what you mean by worldly?
What are sensual communications? Are you saying piano music, PA systems, bus ministries, church buildings, children's churches (none of which I find in the NT example) are not used to communicate the gospel? They are all methods that help aid in the proclamation of the gospel. If they are irrelevant try growing a church with no buildings, nurseries, sound system, or musical instruments (just to mention a few).
BTW, if you choose to give up pews and A/C, you will probably also choose to give up a lot of people. That is reality.
Once again, the message is constant -- the methods are not.
All about Grace
New Member
Could you point me to that passage that prescribes a particular method for getting out the gospel? What I discover in Paul is a man who employed whatever means possible to preach Christ crucified.
Please do not rip 2 Tim 2.5 out of its context to try and make this invalid point. Do you honestly think Paul was talking about methodology when he said we play "according to the rules."
BTW, even if this is what Paul means (which I don't believe he does), who sets these rules and what are they? Are you the person who determines what is inside and outside the rules? Do you decide piano music is okay but acoustic guitar is not? Who sets these rules?
Your church employs methods every week (I am assuming) that were not utilized even 100 years ago. While you may or may not agree with the methods that others employ, those methods are no less valid than yours.
Find freedom from those legalistic chains!!
But in the First Century, the Performing Arts were well developed and sophisticated in Rome and elsewhere. They had clowns, comedians, mimes, minstrels, drama "teams", you name it. There is not one form that exists today that did not exist in the First Century, and all of which were readily accessible for use in evangelism, but the apostles used none.
This is not a discussion about technology, it is a discussion about methods of presentation. At least it is to me. A microphone is not a method, it is a technological device.
Maybe the word "form" is a better choice. The world throughout the centuries has used the aformentioned forms to propogate its philosophies. And yet God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to spread the Gospel. (Please, don't try to say that drama is a form of preaching. It isn't. It means preaching in the sense that it has been practiced in the church for two millennia.)
The latest trends in LifeWay VBS have incorporated the worldly forms (along with the rock music) wholesale.
Find freedom from those legalistic chains!! .
"Legalism!" The rallying cavil of the wanton.
Spare me.
--------------------------------------
The following added later.
Oh yes. And listen. It's not up to you to grow a church. It's up to you to preach the Gospel. Let God grow His own church. Funny how the First Century Church grew without all these forms, though the society at the times was steeped in them.
I will say, though, that I understand where you're coming from. You're wrong. But I understand where you're coming from.
[ July 17, 2002, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
This is not a discussion about technology, it is a discussion about methods of presentation. At least it is to me. A microphone is not a method, it is a technological device.
Maybe the word "form" is a better choice. The world throughout the centuries has used the aformentioned forms to propogate its philosophies. And yet God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to spread the Gospel. (Please, don't try to say that drama is a form of preaching. It isn't. It means preaching in the sense that it has been practiced in the church for two millennia.)
The latest trends in LifeWay VBS have incorporated the worldly forms (along with the rock music) wholesale.
Find freedom from those legalistic chains!! .
"Legalism!" The rallying cavil of the wanton.
Spare me.
--------------------------------------
The following added later.
Oh yes. And listen. It's not up to you to grow a church. It's up to you to preach the Gospel. Let God grow His own church. Funny how the First Century Church grew without all these forms, though the society at the times was steeped in them.
I will say, though, that I understand where you're coming from. You're wrong. But I understand where you're coming from.
[ July 17, 2002, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
All about Grace
New Member
Are you suggesting that the paradigm of the Acts church is the across the board model for every generation to follow? If so every generation since Acts seems to have fallen short of the original "design." Are you presently living in a community that has combined its income to care for each others needs and is sharing meals and meeting outside the confines of a local building?
Since we have very limited access to what the apostles utilized in their presentation, your point is moot.
I would say the use of "signs" went a long ways in advancing the gospel in the First Century. Are you going to maintain that signs were not a validating form that led to the salvation of souls and the establishment of the church?
Every time a pastor stands behind a microphone or uses a sermon illustration or utilizes some other form of dramatic emphasis, he is employing a method of presentation. It is a form he is using to promote the gospel.
Drama is not a form of preaching, but it is a form of presentation. Maybe it is used to simply illustrate a biblical truth in a relevant fashion. I would say Jesus employed many mini-dramas in his presentation.
Don't get me wrong. Preaching is central. Preaching should not be minimized or ignored or replaced with a drama.
But these other "forms" can be used to a) worship; b) evangelize; c) attract; d) put biblical truths in parabolic form; e) grasp the attention of people living in a media-driven culture.
I have heard people use similar arguments against drums in the church or PowerPoint or drama. Yet I have yet to find a single individual who can give a strong biblical basis for such restrictions.
I am still wondering what "worldly forms" are exactly. What is rock music to you is inspirational to others. What is inspirational to you is rock to others.
Again, who is going to set the rules here? Are you going to define what is rock music? Besides, take me to that text in the Bible that tells us only a certain type or style or PREFERENCE of music is the right one. What I find in the Psalms and accounts of OT Israel is that they were to bring every instrument they could find to worship God.
When we begin to believe we have the monopoly on what can be used to worship and what cannot, we are swimming in Pharisee waters.
Again, we have no clue what forms of worship and presentation the Early Church employed. What I do find is Paul getting out there amidst the pagans and using their own poets and line of reasoning to confront them with the gospel. What I do find is Paul becoming all things to all men in order to win the few.
God definitely grows the church. And He is definitely growing a lot more of them that use modern methods to reach their audience than those who are stuck in yesteryears methods of approach (notice I said yesteryears and not Early Church--again every church is employing methods from some previous generation. Some choose to remain in the past and others seek to adjust to the present).
I would say, you are wrong. I have been where you are and thank God every day for liberty.
BTW I am still waiting for those support texts that forbid the unbiblical "forms" with which you have so many problems.