Limited "Alls"

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by ituttut:
I take it we have the go ahead to use the whole Word of God in this discussion.

Christian faith, ituttut [/QB]

Yes, if by "whole" you mean every verse in the canon of Scripture!

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
But you know the story now...and it's in the Bible, which means that every person who ever reads the Bible will know that story. And that happens all over the world.

All means all. [/QB]

In addition, did Peter talk about this woman on the day of Pentecost? It's not recorded that he did. If he didn't, and "all means all" was he disobedient?

When you share the gospel do you talk about this woman, every single time? I doubt it. Are you disobedient? No. It was not Jesus' point that every single person in the world was supposed to hear about this woman when the gospel was preached. He was using hyperbolic language.

 

[Helen]

The story is in Scripture. Those who read Scripture will read it. Scripture is read in different languages all over the world. I don't have a problem with Jesus using 'all' there. The Gospel being preached is, hopefully not a hit and run thing where a person 'shares' the Gospel and then disappears from that person's life into parts unknown. That sounds more like empty words to me, not at all in line with loving one's neighbor or speaking in love. Love means caring. If you care about a person, especially one you are sharing the Gospel with, you stick around, and you read it together, and you discuss it and yes, that story will be part of it.

 

[Helen]

I guess I shouldn't be, but I have to say again that I am saddened by the amount of mockery used by Calvinists in regard to those who disagree with them. I guess when you think you are chosen no matter what, you can afford to mock others. But it sure is a rotten witness to people reading the posts.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Helen:
The story is in Scripture. Those who read Scripture will read it. Scripture is read in different languages all over the world. I don't have a problem with Jesus using 'all' there. The Gospel being preached is, hopefully not a hit and run thing where a person 'shares' the Gospel and then disappears from that person's life into parts unknown. That sounds more like empty words to me, not at all in line with loving one's neighbor or speaking in love. Love means caring. If you care about a person, especially one you are sharing the Gospel with, you stick around, and you read it together, and you discuss it and yes, that story will be part of it.

Look at the quote:

Matthew 26:13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her."

So what you're telling us is that everywhere the Gospel has been preached in the whole world, what this woman did was also told as a memorial to her. There have never been ANY exceptions. Not a single person on earth has ever preached the Gospel anywhere without also eventually telling the story about this woman. Ever. In the whole history of mankind since Jesus, this has been the case without exception.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
I guess I shouldn't be, but I have to say again that I am saddened by the amount of mockery used by Calvinists in regard to those who disagree with them. I guess when you think you are chosen no matter what, you can afford to mock others. But it sure is a rotten witness to people reading the posts.

Helen, I am sorry if you are offended by my sarcasm. I am not trying to mock you personally. I am using sarcasm to show the ridiculousness of a statement you made. We all make ridiculous statements and I have had plenty of sarcasm thrown back at me. That is the nature of debates, which this is. I will try to be more careful with you in the future if it really bothers you.

 

[Helen]

It is not so much that it bothers me personally, Calvi, but I get PM's and emails from those it does bother a lot, who are just reading and not responding. And it is my deep desire that whatever we do, we show the character of our Lord so that people are attracted to Him. I know that from your Calvinist perspective that you are quite sure that all those He has already chosen will come to Him, but please understand that I really do think that what we say and do makes a difference in people's lives and we need to be careful, therefore with what we say and do.

I appreciate your attitude towards that, and thank you.

You asked about ONE exception. LOL, I assume that anyone who reads the Bible will read the story. But I can't play games with you about the 'all'. Jesus said all and I am quite sure that if He had meant 'most', He would have said so.

Edit: Jesus said "everywhere" -- is there somewhere where the Gospel has been preached where this story has been left out of the Bibles and translations? Maybe not 'everyONE' has heard the story, but it is certainly known everyWHERE the Gospel is preached. I am not aware of any missionaries who leave out stories, are you?

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Here's one:

Matthew 26:13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her."

The phrase "whole world" is used here. Did Jesus mean that when the gospel is preached to every single individual that has every lived, this woman will be talked about? Obviously not. Did He even mean that every person who hears the gospel (leaving out those who never hear) will, during the presentation of the gospel, hear about what this woman has done? Did you hear this story when you heard the gospel? I pretty sure I didn't.

This is a limited usage of a universal statement. And, gee, it is the phrase "whole world," one that Me4Him loves to use to say that Jesus died for every single person that ever lived.

All here is "wherever" it is preached in the whole world. No preach, no hear. But "wherever" this gospel, that gospel contained in Matthew is preached, this story will eventually be told.

Will all hear it? Some may die, quit listening, or whatever, but it will be told. Jesus doesn’t tell us everything said and done by Him or others will be remembered, or recorded (written in Holy scripture), but if any scripture that has the gospel as outlined in Matthew does not include this information, we are not to believe that record.

The Gospel of Matthew can be believed, for this information is contained in the translation/s that are accepted by the Christian today.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by ituttut:
All here is "wherever" it is preached in the whole world. No preach, no hear. But "wherever" this gospel, that gospel contained in Matthew is preached, this story will eventually be told.

Respectfully, ituttut, "the gospel" in this passage does not refer to the book of Matthew. It is referring to the story of His death, which is referenced in the previous verse.

Will all hear it? Some may die, quit listening, or whatever, but it will be told. Jesus doesn’t tell us everything said and done by Him or others will be remembered, or recorded (written in Holy scripture), but if any scripture that has the gospel as outlined in Matthew does not include this information, we are not to believe that record.

Interpretational cartwheels. Does this mean that I am only to use the gospel of Matthew and I must be sure to include this story when preaching the gospel? That is what Jesus says, IF you take the meaning of "whole world" to refer to every single person who ever lived.

The Gospel of Matthew can be believed, for this information is contained in the translation/s that are accepted by the Christian today.

Christian faith, ituttut

I am not denying that this story is authentic. I am denying that it is told everytime the gospel is preached to every human being who has ever lived or will ever live. This is a limited usage of the word "wherever" and a limited usage of the phrase "whole world."

 

[Calvibaptist]

Look, I keep getting told that "all means all" and "whole world means whole world." I hear all the time, "Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and that means everybody."

So, if whole world HAS to mean everybody, then this verse is a sham. It is, at the very least, limited to everybody within the group of those who hear the gospel. It can't mean "everybody" in the sense of every person who has ever lived or will ever live. That is what you want "all" and "whole world" to mean. My point is that there are times when those words are used to mean something different.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
I guess I shouldn't be, but I have to say again that I am saddened by the amount of mockery used by Calvinists in regard to those who disagree with them. I guess when you think you are chosen no matter what, you can afford to mock others. But it sure is a rotten witness to people reading the posts.

Way off topic, but I didn't see any mockery on this thread. Do you mind highlighting what it is that you are referring to? It may be that you think someone is mocking you but they may have no idea that you think so, or why you think so.

And when you say "amount of mockery used by Calvinists" do you mean all Calvinists?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Personally, I think this thread isn't addressing the key scripture with respect to the question of "when does all mean all." You know what it is:


Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by whatever:
And when you say "amount of mockery used by Calvinists" do you mean all Calvinists?

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Personally, I think this thread isn't addressing the key scripture with respect to the question of "when does all mean all." You know what it is:


Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That's not an all, that's a whosoever. For the gazillionth time, "Whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller" works, too. And it doesn't leave it open to everyone.

The point is the qualification, "Whosoever believes". The question is, who believes and why? That is not answered in this verse. So you cannot quote John 3:16 as a prooftext for "all".

"World" does not mean all, either. It can mean all manner of things, including "Not just the Jews, but Gentiles, too".

 

[J.D.]

D. James Kennedy does a marvelous routine of using the words all and always and whole world in a DVD called "Amazing Grace, The History of Calvinism".

It's really good, a stand-up comedy routine. BTW that DVD is one of the best intro's to calvinism around. I can't recommend it highly enough.

I think you can get it at monergismbooks.com.

 

[Calvibaptist]

How dare they use that wonderful hymn title as a title of their horrible DVD. Oh, wait, John Newton was a calvinist!

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
I guess I shouldn't be, but I have to say again that I am saddened by the amount of mockery used by Calvinists in regard to those who disagree with them. I guess when you think you are chosen no matter what, you can afford to mock others. But it sure is a rotten witness to people reading the posts.

Way off topic, but I didn't see any mockery on this thread. Do you mind highlighting what it is that you are referring to? It may be that you think someone is mocking you but they may have no idea that you think so, or why you think so.

And when you say "amount of mockery used by Calvinists" do you mean all Calvinists?

</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, whatever, I think Helen's comments were directed at me. We have dealt with the issue, so I don't think she would reply to you about it. I do respect her for that.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Actually, whatever, I think Helen's comments were directed at me. We have dealt with the issue, so I don't think she would reply to you about it. I do respect her for that.

CB,

You may be right, you probably are, but she said "amount of mockery used by Calvinists", and she's used that card often before, so I wondered whether she really meant what she said or if she meant something else.