I should actually have stressed "Having made the Divine payment ...". "O that I may know Him and the POWER of His resurrection ...." - It is the Almighty Power, nay, in fact, "the EXCEEDING GREATNESS of His power". "WHO CAN RESIST HIM?" Least of all, the elect of God, because they were created for God's purpose - His purpose which He SHALL bring to an end and not be disappointed in - which God in fact has already brought to an end in Christ and through Christ and unto Him and unto His glory. FINALITY has been reached in Christ in resurrection from the dead. God's atonement through Jesus Christ has already been exacted with irretrievable effect.
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Limited Atonement and Cause and Effects
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Another well reasoned approach utilizing God given logic. There is no counter argument for logical truth, except an illogical one, one that places it’s presuppositions over and above reason and God-directed and inspired logic, and I believe, the Word of God.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Brother Bob said:
On the Cross Jesus said "It is finished" the payment was equal to the debt owed by all of mankind for all of time.
At His resurrection He refused worship until He had ascended to the Father to receive formal confirmation that His sacrifice - his Atoning Sacrifices was sufficient "for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1john 2:2 NIV.
And now He serves as "The one mediator between God and man" as our "High Priest" as Hebrews states and as Lev 16 predicts in the Day of Atonement service.
In Dan 7:22 we see the end of that work as "Judgment passed in FAVOR of the saints" at which time all persecution of the saints on earth - ends.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Andre said:
Actually it is ALWAYS "effectual" in that it ALWAYS opens the door to God "reconciling the WORLD unto Himself" 2Cor 5.
It ALWAYs results in the grace of God extending out - instead of the immediate destruction of mankind.
It ALWAYS results in the BLESSINGS of God poured out on the saved and unsaved -- the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and of Christ and of the Angels on behalf of the SAVED and the UNSAVED - instead of wiping out mankind.
It is ALWAYS effectual on many many levels.
But one could ask about HEb 10 and "crucifying Christ AGAIN to themselves afresh" through rebellion even after having encountered the Gospel.
Why frame that in terms such as "God's inneffectual gospel" in those cases AS IF this is somehow God's fault??
Calvinists seem to enjoy going down that road but I think it is misleading.
The Atoning SACRIFICE was completed once for all at the cross.
But the PROCESS of Atonement must also INCLUDE the High Priest's work according to GOD in Lev 16 -- shall we believe Him? IF SO then the work of Christ as High Priest described in Heb 7-10 DOES matter when it comes to that subject.
In Christ,
Bob
BR:
"On the Cross Jesus said "It is finished" the payment was equal to the debt owed by all of mankind for all of time."
GE:
The 'payment' was for 'sin'. If but of one sin of one person, the 'payment' would have been the 'payment' that 'equaled' the magnitude of 'sin' in principle AS IF, FOR, 'all the debt owed by all of mankind for all of time'.
Adam and Eve would die if they but once disobeyed. It means, sin is infinite, however 'few', however 'small'. It requires the full 'payment' even though for the sins of the elect only.
"The payment .... equal to the debt owed by all of mankind for all of time", was the payment FOR, the debt owed by the "many" only whom the Father had given the Son who prayed: "I pray NOT for the world".
"On the Cross Jesus said "It is finished" the payment was equal to the debt owed by all of mankind for all of time."
GE:
The 'payment' was for 'sin'. If but of one sin of one person, the 'payment' would have been the 'payment' that 'equaled' the magnitude of 'sin' in principle AS IF, FOR, 'all the debt owed by all of mankind for all of time'.
Adam and Eve would die if they but once disobeyed. It means, sin is infinite, however 'few', however 'small'. It requires the full 'payment' even though for the sins of the elect only.
"The payment .... equal to the debt owed by all of mankind for all of time", was the payment FOR, the debt owed by the "many" only whom the Father had given the Son who prayed: "I pray NOT for the world".
BR:
"At His resurrection He refused worship until He had ascended to the Father to receive formal confirmation that His sacrifice - his Atoning Sacrifices was sufficient "for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1john 2:2 NIV."
GE:
This is not the first time. BobRyan persists in his blindness. I'll shout it: NOT "AT", BUT AFTER, "His resurrection".
Besides, Jesus 'refused' not 'worship' (when Mary wanted to cling to Him). He actually sent her to spread the Gospel of His worship!
You imply Jesus wasn't 'worthy' yet to be worshipped? What difference would His ascension have made? Would it make Him more worthy, worthy enough to be worshipped? Not in the least! BECAUSE, Jesus "rose from the dead in the glory of the Father" AT, the "working of the exceeding greatness of (God's) power WHEN, He raised Him from the dead". NOT AFTER!
Christ's resurrection WAS, and for ever WILL be, the ALL-sufficient, 'formal confirmation, that His sacrifice - his ONE, ONCE FOR ALL, 'Atoning Sacrifice', "was sufficient "for our SINS and not for our sins only, but for the sins (ATONED) of the whole world".
"At His resurrection He refused worship until He had ascended to the Father to receive formal confirmation that His sacrifice - his Atoning Sacrifices was sufficient "for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1john 2:2 NIV."
GE:
This is not the first time. BobRyan persists in his blindness. I'll shout it: NOT "AT", BUT AFTER, "His resurrection".
Besides, Jesus 'refused' not 'worship' (when Mary wanted to cling to Him). He actually sent her to spread the Gospel of His worship!
You imply Jesus wasn't 'worthy' yet to be worshipped? What difference would His ascension have made? Would it make Him more worthy, worthy enough to be worshipped? Not in the least! BECAUSE, Jesus "rose from the dead in the glory of the Father" AT, the "working of the exceeding greatness of (God's) power WHEN, He raised Him from the dead". NOT AFTER!
Christ's resurrection WAS, and for ever WILL be, the ALL-sufficient, 'formal confirmation, that His sacrifice - his ONE, ONCE FOR ALL, 'Atoning Sacrifice', "was sufficient "for our SINS and not for our sins only, but for the sins (ATONED) of the whole world".
BR:
"And now He serves as "The one mediator between God and man" as our "High Priest" as Hebrews states and as Lev 16 predicts in the Day of Atonement service."
GE:
Again BobRyan persists in his folly, persistently adding to the plain Word, his own, ".... as Hebrews states and as Lev 16 predicts in the Day of Atonement service" by which he has in mind (but being too scared, won't say) the SDA-old wives' tale of 'the investigative judgment' going on since 1844.
(They can't even add or subtract, since their arithmatics closes on 1843.)
"And now He serves as "The one mediator between God and man" as our "High Priest" as Hebrews states and as Lev 16 predicts in the Day of Atonement service."
GE:
Again BobRyan persists in his folly, persistently adding to the plain Word, his own, ".... as Hebrews states and as Lev 16 predicts in the Day of Atonement service" by which he has in mind (but being too scared, won't say) the SDA-old wives' tale of 'the investigative judgment' going on since 1844.
(They can't even add or subtract, since their arithmatics closes on 1843.)
Andre:
"What do you really mean by the phrase "common grace"?"
This 'phrase' used to be popular among the Puritans, and before them, among the Reformers. It simply denotes God's goodness which like the rain, falls upon everyone, irrespective of whether one is an elect or not. Saving grace is its counterpart. Saving grace 'is good', only for God's Elect.
"What do you really mean by the phrase "common grace"?"
This 'phrase' used to be popular among the Puritans, and before them, among the Reformers. It simply denotes God's goodness which like the rain, falls upon everyone, irrespective of whether one is an elect or not. Saving grace is its counterpart. Saving grace 'is good', only for God's Elect.
BR:
"In Dan 7:22 we see the end of that work as "Judgment passed in FAVOR of the saints" at which time all persecution of the saints on earth - ends."
GE:
Dn7:21 says the horn made war upon the saints, "until" - verse 22 - "the Ancient of days came and judgment was given to the saints". But verse 14 tells us the saints already received the Kingdom and rule when "One like the Son of Man came on the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days". The Gospel era stretches in between the Resurrection of Christ, and the Second Coming. "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" is their own resurrection and the begiining of eternal life on an earth made new.
Simple. For a child to understand; for saving faith to firmly stand on, and for undisappointing hope to hold fast to.
"In Dan 7:22 we see the end of that work as "Judgment passed in FAVOR of the saints" at which time all persecution of the saints on earth - ends."
GE:
Dn7:21 says the horn made war upon the saints, "until" - verse 22 - "the Ancient of days came and judgment was given to the saints". But verse 14 tells us the saints already received the Kingdom and rule when "One like the Son of Man came on the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days". The Gospel era stretches in between the Resurrection of Christ, and the Second Coming. "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" is their own resurrection and the begiining of eternal life on an earth made new.
Simple. For a child to understand; for saving faith to firmly stand on, and for undisappointing hope to hold fast to.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
in Dan 7 it is abundantly clear that the saints DO NOT receive the Kingdom UNTIL Christ does - And Christ recieves it after going to that judgment scene in Daniel 7 TO the Ancient of Days!
13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
and that Kindom transition DOES NOT occur UNTIL the judgment is completed.
21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
24 "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.
25 "He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
26 "But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27 "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.
Details details.
13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
and that Kindom transition DOES NOT occur UNTIL the judgment is completed.
21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
24 "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.
25 "He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
26 "But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27 "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.
Details details.
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'Details', saying nothing, so confusedly presented.
In and with Christ in resurrection from the dead is judgement being passed in favour of the saints, is the kingdom being given to the saints of the Most High --- IN, the One like the Son of Man, BEING PRESENTED, before the Ancient of days.
Simplicity, simplicity!
In and with Christ in resurrection from the dead is judgement being passed in favour of the saints, is the kingdom being given to the saints of the Most High --- IN, the One like the Son of Man, BEING PRESENTED, before the Ancient of days.
Simplicity, simplicity!