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Featured Limited Autonomus Will

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Dec 4, 2022.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The idea we are free to choose from among available options is consistent with our experience. Scripture tells us God sometimes restricts our options, i.e. hardening the hearts of some such that they will reject the gospel, i.e. Romans 11.

    "The absence of free will is, however, devastating to all theists since without it you cannot choose to be evil or good, and therefore deserve neither punishment nor salvation."
    So the complete absence of free or autonomous will is irrational and unrestricted free will is unbiblical. Some assert since we are free to choose among various sinful actions, but unable to choose the narrow path that leads to life, it makes sense for God to punish us for the sin we chose. Rational minds object.

    We can harden our own hearts by the practice of sin. And God can harden hearts for His purpose, such as Romans 11. God can choose a person well on the way of hardening his own heart, and complete the process. Scripture does not rule any of the three out.

    Some say whatsoever comes to pass is predestined to occur. Therefore God is the author of sin. Then some others say while it is true that God to be sovereign must predestine everything, that does not make God the author of sin. Rational minds object.

    Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not. But prior to that those hardened did make sinful choices, sealing their fate. The hardening, like physical death, simply ends the opportunity to obtain mercy. God, as the potter has the right to harden whoever He pleases.

    Why would God do that, cut short the opportunity of some, and endure their hardened behavior? God did so to make known the riches of His glory (see Romans 9), including even us which He called not from Jews only but also from among Gentiles.

    Our ability to make choices from a among various options can be restricted by God for His purpose, thus the Biblical doctrine is "Limited Autonomus Will."

    Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability as the result of the Fall is shown to be mistaken doctrine.

    So when you see disputes raging over complete slavery to sin versus complete freedom of our will, consider that we are fallen and therefore predisposed to sin with a corrupt nature, but we are not so incapacitated as to not be responsible for our choices to reject Christ, or to not treat others as we would treat ourselves, because we have the capacity to accept Christ, and strive to do the will of God.
     
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  2. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    And your verse which proves limited autonomous will is?
     
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Lol, one glance at the thread title and I knew immediately that it was Vanology.
     
    #3 kyredneck, Dec 4, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2022
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 6:16, ". . . Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? . . ."
     
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  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Wow. Just, wow....
     
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  6. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    That’s so twisted even twisted people think it’s jacked up
     
  7. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    @Van. Van do you understand that all of this stuff that you post God will judge?
     
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  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Specifically what is twisted? And how and or why?
     
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  9. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    @Van . You're post seems pretty much in line with what most regular Baptist or evangelical or Bible church people would believe. Do you think there is a difference between free will and autonomous free will? It seems like that is a point of contention for a lot of people.
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    For any discerning person, Van's OP is a twisted version of Pelagianism.
    @Van wrote: "Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not. But prior to that those hardened did make sinful choices, sealing their fate."

    To your point, however, most evangelicals have a twisted version of Pelagianism that is often referred to as semi-pelagianism.
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...really?

     
  12. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Ky, I didn't understand that part either but I mean just the overall things on free will and so on.
     
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Man had free will ONCE in a garden and look what it cost him:eek:... His WILL is now in bondage and will be until Christ returns... Btw his WILL has been given to another... Jesus Christ the righteous!... OK Van your turn!... Brother Glen:)

    John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, free means or suggests unconstrained, but the will of those who have hardened their hearts against the gospel by the practice of sin is constrained.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    More off topic name calling, but did this biblical student who seems unable to even do a word search take a position? Nope, thus just a taint so post devoid of merit.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Romans 9:14-16
    What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it!
    For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.​
    The "it" in Romans 9:16 refers to receiving mercy and compassion. Receiving "it" does not depend "on the person who wants [mercy and compassion] or on the person who "runs" [does things to obtain mercy and compassion].


    Van said:
    Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved ​
    The men who will and/or run are those seeking salvation. Thus Romans 9:16 teaches that some people seek salvation proving "total spiritual inability" is unbiblical.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    No need to take a turn as your post is nonsense.
    Romans 9:16 says people will to be saved and do things to be saved, even though their actions do not result in salvation. Thus lost people have limited autonomous will according to scripture.

    As far as John 6:44, no person can enter Christ, a change in spiritual location, unless they have been attracted to Christ by the Father's action. Why? Only those placed spiritually into Christ will be raised at the last day.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, God will judge those entering the kingdom and reward effective servants.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Why did Jesus speak in parables in Matthew 13, if the lost could not hear and understand the milk of the gospel?

    Answer Matthew 13
    "10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 ]Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.​

    Jesus spoke in parables without providing an explanation to prevent them from seeing, hearing and understanding. Thus they had some spiritual ability that had to be countered by using parables.

    2) Why did God harden the hearts of the disbelieving Jews in Romans 11, if they were already unable to respond to the gospel.

    Answer Romans 11 "
    7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
    8 just as it is written,
    “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
    Down to this very day.”

    9 And David says,
    “Let their table become a snare and a trap,
    And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
    10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
    And bend their backs forever.”​

    Scripture says God prevented the unbelieving Jews from seeing, hearing and understanding, which means they had that capacity before God hardened them.

    Again, IMHO, it is obvious that Jesus spoke in parables and God hardened hearts to prevent the lost from using their limited autonomous will to respond to the gospel.
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 God commands all men everywhere to repent, and that having so commanded, He expects they can and will.

    Or do you think that God is not being Honest here? Or perhaps you have a different understanding of what "all" means.

    This another verse that you should look at John 6:41. Who are the everyone in this verse?
     
    #20 Silverhair, Dec 4, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2022
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