Literal vs Spiritual (cont.)

[Aaron]

But shouldn't we interpret the Bible spiritually instead of literally?

JoJ: In reference to my grandfather??? Reductio ad absurdum, absolutely.​

*sigh* Your point was that your grandad looked regal on a horse, so why not Christ? So if looks is the issue, how does bloody clothes and a stack of hats look? Still regal or absurd?

JoJ: I see. Then you don't know the difference between "temple" and "tabernacle."​

*heavy sigh* In regard to Judaism, one was portable and the other was permanent. The one was God's idea, the other David's. But in purpose, there is absolutely no difference, and the terms are used interchangeably.

JoJ: Um, that is a reference to 1 Peter 2:5, and the dwelling there is "house," not "tabernacle." Those are quite different metaphors--and they are metaphors, as any literalist knows. These are the kind of exegetical difficulties the interpreter gets into when he doesn't interpret with a grammatical-historical method.​

LOL. And this is where your strife over words won't allow you to see the forest for the trees. The tabernacle and the temple were both referred to as the house of the Lord more times than they were called the tabernacle or the temple. It is beyond doubt that Peter has the temple in mind when he penned those words, speaking of the priesthood and the sacrifices in the very same verse.

As I said before, one must contradict straightforward, elementary doctrines in the epistles to entertain the notion that Christ is coming to set up a temporal kingdom, a Levitical priesthood, and worst of all . . . the animal sacrifices. Talk of your butchery as if God ever had delight in the blood of bulls and goats.

​

 

[Covenanter]

I begin my reply with a few Scriptures relating to the supposed future millennium temple - a temple for the dwelling of Messiah, and for renewed animal sacrifices.

Exodus 25:8 And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them.

Isaiah 1:11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Jeremiah 7:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 “Stand in the gate of the Lord’s house, and proclaim there this word, and say, ‘Hear the word of the Lord, all you of Judah who enter in at these gates to worship the Lord!’” 3 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place. 4 Do not trust in these lying words, saying, ‘The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are these.’

Acts 7:44 “Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as He appointed, instructing Moses to make it according to the pattern that he had seen, 45 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David, 46 who found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built Him a house.
48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
49 ‘Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?’
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Acts 13:38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.


Leviticus 26:

11 I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you.
12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people.


Rev. 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
............
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

God's Leviticus prophecy is seen to be perfectly fulfilled in the NH&NE by God dwelling eternally with his people.

A simple grammatical-historical interpretation leads to the understanding that sacrificial worship in an earthly tabernacle/temple had a symbolic purpose - a place of worship signifying God's presence with his people, an offering for sin, prefiguring the sacrifice of Christ & his atoning sacrifice for sinners. Signifying the eternal NH&NE where God dwells with his people without a temple.

It comes as a surprise when we read of a new temple for the dwelling of the LORD - with sacrifices for sin - prophesied in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 43:6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. 7 And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever.

18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it. 19 You shall give a young bull for a sin offering ......

As the prophecy was given after the Babylonians had destroyed Solomon's temple, while the Israelites were in exile, a grammatical-historical interpretation would read this as applying to the temple to be rebuilt on the return from exile, but always looking forward to the Messianic presence that the Old Covenant prophecies prefigured.

Jesus & the Apostles show that the New Covenant temple is built with his redeemed people, living stones, for the worship of God in the Spirit.

The grammatical-historical interpretation of the Old Covenant prophecies result in a real fulfilment by Christ in the present Gospel age, & perfect, eternal fulfilment in the NH&NE.

 

[Covenanter]

But -

This is not rocket science. Over and over on these prophecy threads I have stood for grammatical-historical interpretation, which is the literal view. I find it to be disingenuous for you to pretend you don't know that I am a literalist, and thus would be a heretic according to your post. (And yes, I believe in a literal millennial temple and animal sacrifice. How in the world is that heresy?)

The grammatical-historical interpretation can be understood as rocket science - Newton's second law of action/reaction - light the fuse, the propellant starts to burn & up goes the rocket.

Who designed the rocket, & who guides it, or does it fall back to earth accomplishing no particular purpose? Does Old Covenant prophecy apply only to the people of Israel referred to in the prophecy, & is literal fullfilment the complete & ultimate fulfilment.

Those accused of "spiritualizing" or "allegorizing" are simply seeing the fulfilment of OC prophecy by the LORD Jesus Christ in the New Covenant. In the present Gospel age for the born again redeemed people of God from all nations, in the spiritual realm. When Jesus returns for resurrection & judgement, all will be completely & perfectly fulfilled in the NH&NE.

 

[David Kent]

They are not literalist of course. They add to scripture to fit their scolfiedlite teachings.
We take the take the Dan 9 prophecy literally, but they add to scripture to make it fit their futurist brain washings.

 

[Aaron]

This will be a lengthy post, so I will start with the point. Covenanter started with the Scriptures. I want to show that one need not be enlightened by the Spirit to discern the fact that Word was indeed made flesh and dwelt among us. In other words, became the tabernacle ( . . . the veil, that is to say, His flesh; Heb. 10:20)

Commenting on Matthew 12:1-8, one of the foremost authorities on Judaism in the first centuries of Christianity and prolific writer, Jacob Neusner, said this:

When, therefore, Jesus says that something greater than the Temple is here, he can only mean that he and his disciples may do on the Sabbath what they do because they stand in the place of the priests in the Temple: the holy place has shifted, now being formed by the circle made up of the master and his disciples.*
​

The fact that the Church is Christ's body, the Temple, the House of the Lord on earth, the Holy Land, is so obvious as to be gleaned from one of Christ's earliest teachings. Most of us in the West miss it, and we rely on the teachings in the epistles to see it. Those steeped in Judaism in the first centuries would see it right away. But none of us need to study the Talmud. We need only to believe the things that were told us by Peter, James and John and Paul. And so also the Jews. They don't need the Spirit to see what Christ was saying, but they did need the Spirit to believe it.

It's the historical-grammatical teaching. And it's the teaching that needs to be denied to assert a Premillennial eschatology.

​

Neusner's book is one of two books I own written by a rabbi. I bought it because I wanted to see his arguments with the doctrines of Jesus, and to try to counter them. I was surprised to see that each of his points of difference with Christ's teaching on the law was answered decisively by Paul. I did gain some insights into rabbinical tradition and other modes of Jewish thought by reading the book, and I often quote from it.

The other book I own is also Neusner's, Children of the Flesh, Children of the Promise: A Rabbi talks with Paul.

*A Rabbi Talks with Jesus: an Intermillennial, Interfaith Exchange

 

[kyredneck]

When, therefore, Jesus says that something greater than the Temple is here, he can only mean that he and his disciples may do on the Sabbath what they do because they stand in the place of the priests in the Temple: the holy place has shifted, now being formed by the circle made up of the master and his disciples.

OUTSTANDING! ....and it's a Jew, a Judaistic Jew, that sees this.

And so also the Jews. They don't need the Spirit to see what Christ was saying, but they did need the Spirit to believe it.

Another outstanding point. Thanks Aaron.

 

[Aaron]

OUTSTANDING! ....and it's a Jew, a Judaistic Jew, that sees this.

And isn't this the crux of the argument being made by the literalists?* That the Scriptures need to be interpreted with the meaning one would get looking over the shoulder of Matthew as he wrote it?

*They're not the real literalists, because they don't interpret symbols as literal symbols.

 

[Covenanter]

IMO the argument isn't really literal vs spiritual, but a question of interpretation.

"Literal" is used to justify a premil interpretation of OT prophecy centred on the nation of Israel. "Spiritual" is rejected because it sees the Church as the fulfilment of OT prophecy.

That argument is seriously wrong. Christ is the supreme fulfilment of all prophecy. The present Gospel age is the time during which all nations are being called into the Kingdom of God which is an invisible, spiritual, heavenly Kingdom. Citizens of that Kingdom pass into the presence of God at death, and into the glorious NH&NE when Jesus returns for resurrection and judgment.

 

[robycop3]

Scripture is MOSTLY-LITERAL, as proven by literally-fulfilled prophecy and accurate description of historical events, such as the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah.

God had Moses prophesy that if Israel sinned & kept sinning, God would send terrible punishment upon them, which He did.

daniel's vision of the four kingdoms which would rule Israel came true right down the line. And his narration of the prophecy about the Ptolemaic & Seleucid kingdoms that followed Alexander The Great's empire was spot-on & literal. Same with Nebuchadnezzar's statue that the Kingdom of God brings down. So far, it's been fulfilled li

Let's look at Jesus' Olivet Discourse. The parts of it that HAS cometa pass has done so LITERALLY-the destruction of J & the temple, etc. There's simply no valid reason to believe the rest won't cometa pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY, & the same goes to the Revelation. All the eschatological prophecies are tied together, and they're LITERAL.

 

[David Kent]

daniel's vision of the four kingdoms which would rule Israel came true right down the line. And his narration of the prophecy about the Ptolemaic & Seleucid kingdoms that followed Alexander The Great's empire was spot-on & literal. Same with Nebuchadnezzar's statue that the Kingdom of God brings down. So far, it's been fulfilled li

Yes and it is literal that Herod was in those prophecies but you don't accept that, ypu jump past him to an imaginative future personage . It is also literal that the AOD was the Roman armies surrounding Rome

It is also a literal 70 prophetic week prophecy, "70 Weeks IS determined."

Don't pretend you are a literalist. You are not.