Little Church "Colleges"

[Dr. Bob]

Put time frame and influence into perspective. Mid 60's Jack Hyles is the "guru" to almost all northern Baptists. His church, bus ministry, 1-2-3-pray-after-me, books, conferences, etc. What Jack thought and did was "gold". Everyone wanted to ride the wave and follow in his train.

He started "Pastors School" that was second to none. Even whupped up on Falwell and Tom Malone, made the Sword Conferences looks 2nd class.

In 1970ish he started a "college". Sham education for sure, but hundreds of pastors shared in the "glory" by sending kids there. It was THE place to be, to learn how to be in buses, soul winning, et al. HE set the standards, the rules.

In 1970 there were a handful of good ifb schools across the north - BBC in Pennsylvania, LABC (now Masters), Western in Oregon, Denver BBC, Pillsbury BBC, Maranatha BBC, BBC Springfield in Missouri, Cedarville, TTU, BJU. The SBC had their own colleges.

Then the dam burst and not only did all the "would-be" hylesites have to have a bus ministry, a christian school, a big church plant, big staff, Sword Conferences, AND now - a BIBLE COLLEGE. Kept kids home, money and workers in the church not off 1000 miles to a real school.

Like HAC, sham education and slave labor. Few have high quality music, drama, sports, and above all EDUCATION standards.

Now I kid you not. Look at the Sword of the Lord "college" page and you will see a number of little "empire" schools. And we have GOOD ifb schools of 1000+ students, accredited, doing a great job, but why send your kids there when you can keep them at home.

The "fad" of "follow-the-leader" hopefully will stop. BUT a whole new generation of pastors are out there, untrained in the Word but able to parrot Hyles (or vineyard or voeglin or malone or comfort) and they have not seen history like I have.

Do others see the "little, struggling, empire-building local so-called colleges" as a fad that will, with the passing of this generation, fade away?

 

[go2church]

I have always taken the stand that if you want to be a church go and do the things to be a church. If you want to start a school then go and start a school, get a board together and start fund raising and be a school. Usually the empire schools are monuments to the "pastors" ego and nothing more. The diplomas are worthless and the education they receive is equally worthless.

 

[RandR]

I'm not sure I would call it a "fad," because fads tend to die off almost as quickly as the arrived.

The reason I think they're here to stay is that most of the pastors who start them graduated from one. (And received their D.D. from one to boot. They are a symbol of status and achievement. (At least in their world.) The microcosm of society in which these schools exist has such an apparently extreme view of seperation, that anything you or I might say negative or critical about them (the schools) is a badge of honor to the pastors to be worn with pride.

The names and personalities will change as one such college pops up while another closes its doors, but the cycle will likely continue until Jesus comes back.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Snipped from Dr. Bob's original post....vineyard or voeglin or malone or comfort....

If you are referring to Ambassador Baptist College and Ron Comfort, I dare say that he and the school do not belong on a list of "local church based" colleges. To the best of my knowledge, ABC is independent of any particular local church. As you noted on another thread, their flavor may not be to your taste. ABC, from what I know of it, is a fairly decent school. But then, I don't like mint in my tea either.

 

[PastorGreg]

I see a lot of scriptural basis for local churches training believers and sending them out to serve God. I see no biblical basis for "accredited IFB colleges of 1000 plus students." Perhaps a little axe grinding going on in this thread?

 

[Dr. Bob]

No axe here, brother. Just disappointment at the product of 99.9% of these little so-called colleges. Even some of the big name ifb schools produce shabby product, but these others are really a sham.

That's all. I no longer teach at a good ifb school. We have a little reformed baptist Bible Institute (night classes, very limited and we know it - don't pretend it is something else) here in Casper.

Pastors NEED high quality training in
Grammar, Vocabulary, Literature, History, Government, Sociology, Psychology, Philosophy et al, as well as Theology, Bible and Languages.

Have seen/heard way too many who only parrot preachers (Ron Comfort's school is good, but have you heard his "preacher boys"? They have every movement, inflection, etc down pat).

I post on the BB and the FFF. Can almost tell what kind of a school each poster attended by reading their posts!

 

[gb93433]

Dr. Bob I would say that need more than just "high quality training in Grammar, Vocabulary, Literature, History, Government, Sociology, Psychology, Philosophy et al, as well as Theology, Bible and Languages."

Certainly we need great training both academically and practically. What they need is a big dose of discipleship. I am not talking about wimpy Bible study renamed and called discipleship. I am talking about teaching pastors to lead people to Christ and train the person they lead to Christ so that they can lead another to Christ and follow up on that person. For the first two years of my Christian life the man who led me to Christ met with me every week to pray and talk with others about Christ. We went places and did things together. We met together to read the Bible and pray for needs and others needs. We prayed for God to use us. We talked about how to reach others. We talked about how to lead another to Christ. I saw him do it before my eyes. Eventually I began to pray that God would use me. I never get tired of discipling others the way Jesus did.. Satan wants to get us busy, busy and not reproducing. It doesn't take very long to see the fruit of a person's doctrine.

All the time when I talk with other pastors they tel me they don't know how to disciple someone. If I never pastored another day I could keep busy training people to be reproducers.

A pastor that reproduces will either be run out of a congregation or be loved. He will begin to train people and some will rejoice and start reproducing their life in Christ in the lives of others. Some will get mad because it will take away from their power and control.

When we train people they will never be the same. When that happens we can say as John did in 3 John 4, "I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in the truth."

 

[aefting]

I think part of the phenomenon is due to a strong, but perhaps misplaced, local church emphasis. As alluded to earlier, some pastors see the local church as the sole instrument designed by God to train and equip the saints. If the college is not under the authority of a local church, then it is inappropriate, or so the thinking goes. While I believe strongly in the local church and disapprove of para-church organizations that try to “replace” the church, I do believe that there is room for local churches to make use of para-church organizations – camps, schools, mission boards, etc. – to further their ministry.

I also believe it is very helpful for students to go away for college. Sometimes when people expect you to always act a certain way, you do. I know for me, it was easier to mature in certain ways away from my church and family than it would have been if I had stayed at home.

Andy

 

[aefting]

Just want to add that there are some very strong IFB seminaries associated with local churches today -- Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary and Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary in Lansdale, PA, to name two.

Andy

 

[Squire Robertsson]

To Detroit and Calvary, I would add International Baptist College and Graduate School of Tempe, Arizona.

 

[baptistteacher]

And also add Tennessee Temple in Chattanooga.

But these are not the subject of this thread, the "Little Colleges"

 

[Circuitrider]

Originally posted by gb93433:
Dr. Bob I would say that need more than just "high quality training in Grammar, Vocabulary, Literature, History, Government, Sociology, Psychology, Philosophy et al, as well as Theology, Bible and Languages."

Certainly we need great training both academically and practically. What they need is a big dose of discipleship. I am not talking about wimpy Bible study renamed and called discipleship. I am talking about teaching pastors to lead people to Christ and train the person they lead to Christ so that they can lead another to Christ and follow up on that person. For the first two years of my Christian life the man who led me to Christ met with me every week to pray and talk with others about Christ. We went places and did things together. We met together to read the Bible and pray for needs and others needs. We prayed for God to use us. We talked about how to reach others. We talked about how to lead another to Christ. I saw him do it before my eyes. Eventually I began to pray that God would use me. I never get tired of discipling others the way Jesus did.. Satan wants to get us busy, busy and not reproducing. It doesn't take very long to see the fruit of a person's doctrine.

All the time when I talk with other pastors they tel me they don't know how to disciple someone. If I never pastored another day I could keep busy training people to be reproducers.

A pastor that reproduces will either be run out of a congregation or be loved. He will begin to train people and some will rejoice and start reproducing their life in Christ in the lives of others. Some will get mad because it will take away from their power and control.

When we train people they will never be the same. When that happens we can say as John did in 3 John 4, "I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in the truth."

Amen to that post brother. We need pastors who are disciplers not cheerleaders or agenda promoters. I am working with our state fellowship after 30 years of pastoral ministry, but I am trying to keep some discipling going in my new home church.

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Put time frame and influence into perspective. Mid 60's Jack Hyles is the "guru" to almost all northern Baptists. His church, bus ministry, 1-2-3-pray-after-me, books, conferences, etc. What Jack thought and did was "gold". Everyone wanted to ride the wave and follow in his train.

He started "Pastors School" that was second to none. Even whupped up on Falwell and Tom Malone, made the Sword Conferences looks 2nd class.

In 1970ish he started a "college". Sham education for sure, but hundreds of pastors shared in the "glory" by sending kids there. It was THE place to be, to learn how to be in buses, soul winning, et al. HE set the standards, the rules.

In 1970 there were a handful of good ifb schools across the north - BBC in Pennsylvania, LABC (now Masters), Western in Oregon, Denver BBC, Pillsbury BBC, Maranatha BBC, BBC Springfield in Missouri, Cedarville, TTU, BJU. The SBC had their own colleges.

Then the dam burst and not only did all the "would-be" hylesites have to have a bus ministry, a christian school, a big church plant, big staff, Sword Conferences, AND now - a BIBLE COLLEGE. Kept kids home, money and workers in the church not off 1000 miles to a real school.

Like HAC, sham education and slave labor. Few have high quality music, drama, sports, and above all EDUCATION standards.

Now I kid you not. Look at the Sword of the Lord "college" page and you will see a number of little "empire" schools. And we have GOOD ifb schools of 1000+ students, accredited, doing a great job, but why send your kids there when you can keep them at home.

The "fad" of "follow-the-leader" hopefully will stop. BUT a whole new generation of pastors are out there, untrained in the Word but able to parrot Hyles (or vineyard or voeglin or malone or comfort) and they have not seen history like I have.

Do others see the "little, struggling, empire-building local so-called colleges" as a fad that will, with the passing of this generation, fade away?

I agree, Dr. Bob. I went to one of those "sham" church Bible colleges which was a split off of BBC in Springfield, MO. Dr. Bobby Lounsberry and some of his disgruntled pastor friends started Fellowship Baptist College in E. Peoria, Illinois in the late 70's. It had trouble from day one, and ended up becoming defunct in 1996 or 97. There is only one year I can recall someone having an honest "doctorate" as a teacher there, and he's in Texas now. He got his degree through the SBC after being kicked out of this college, and then came back to teach there for one year. He eventually helped start another church Bible college in Mapleton, Illinois, Central Illinois Baptist College. It, too is about ready to fold from what I understand, as both the pastor, and this Dr. Mitchell fellow split the scene...and the church.

People, send your kids to a good accredited Bible college like the ones mentioned by Dr. Bob. Even an SBC college wouldn't be a crime.

AJL

 

[Maverick]

An SBC college might be close to a crime depending on which one.

Most colleges started out small run by maybe a couple of "professors". I seem to remember one in history called the "log college" that was started by a very respected man.

Considering none of the apostles attended college and most of the preachers were trained by apprenticeship for many, many years until the church got "organized" and some group of lads said come to us and we will teach you and we will call it a college and a bunch of other guys said, "Yep I like these guys" and became an accreditation board I don't see much difference in small churches apprenticing men and calling their format a college, seminary or whatever. Shucks, most of the "Drs" in my accredited colleges were honorary DDs or whatever because of their experience. I learned more fromt he school of hard knocks than I ever did in my classrooms. Pastors should be apprenticed. Degrees be hanged. Too many heretics have degrees so they prove very little. We now have so many resources in digital format that the old style classroom process is hardly needed. It is expensive, not necessarily productive nor is it capable of weeding out the ones who should not be in the pastorate plus it robs the local church of the gifted people that God put there for that church. It has turned a calling into a career and made choosing a pastor chaos and a circus by cranking out far more preachers than are needed because the folks are capable of paying tuition and tuition is needed to keep the cycle going. Little Meccas are created where men bow to and perpetuate them by sending all their young people to their particular Mecca. It is a mode outlived and abused and caters to the world's concept of wisdom.

 

[Refreshed]

Okay Maverick, but what do you really think?

Jason

 

[Maverick]

I know. Please pray that I will break out of my shy shell and be more assertive in my expression.

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by Refreshed:
Okay Maverick, but what do you really think?

Jason

LOL...I don't think Maverick has a hard time voicing the opinion at hand on any subject...LOL

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Pastors should be apprenticed.

Our Pastor has at least two apprentices under him at all times.

We also have a very good Christian School from Pre K through 2 years of Junior College. They then go on to a bigger college.

The students graduating from our school score VERY high on their College entrance exams. Higher than a lot of the Public school students. This was told to me personally by the President of a Business School.

Dr. Bobby Lounsberry and some of his disgruntled pastor friends started Fellowship Baptist College in E. Peoria, Illinois in the late 70's.

My son (who now pastors a church) went to Fellowship Baptist for a year. My Pastor drove up there once a week to teach a class. This school was not a 'sham'.

He also attended Hyles-Anderson College for a year before finishing at OBC. He is far from being a 'robot'. He is a Godly man with strong fundamental beliefs. He is a good Pastor, a wonderful father, a loving husband, and a joy as a son.

I am not saying that because he is my son. Ask anyone who has ever met him and they will tell you the same thing.

Just because some of you may have had a bad experience at a college, or don't happen to like certain preachers, does not mean that they are not viable in their teachings.

JMO,
§ue

 

[Kayla]

My pastor graduated BBC "springfield" in the late 50's early 60's he is the first one to tell you that it lost it standards alot. about early 70's. They just got a new adminstrator though. Maybe just maybe they will get some standards and become a good college.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Kayla, you bring up a salient point we should not forget.

Our colleges/seminaries are NOT STATIC. They change (usually not drastically in a year or two) over a period of time.

So the college I loved and developed a great affinity for in 1966 was a vastly different school in 76. Different again by 86.

And really different by 96 when they asked me to return and teach!!