Living With Hamas's Victory

I sort of agree with his conclusions. I would only add that part of the consequences of their actions should be an immediate cut in all funding from America to the Palestinians until they are able to prove that they can move toward peace. This should be supported by substantial actions (evidence) and not merely hollow words. Now, there is a neocon dream for you: Reciprocity and Accountability.

Too bad Condi is such a mediocre foreign diplomat that she has not mastered that basic concept yet.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I really liked how she set up all those timetables and substantive actions for the Israelis to do in the road map in her last trip there and settled for hollow, empty words from the Palestinians. That is simply brilliant mediocrity when it comes to foreign policy. She certainly has excelled at being one of the most mediocre SOS's to deal with the Israeli / Palestinian conflict.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Condoleezza Rice has forgotten more in the area of international relations than you will ever know.

Has she also forgotten more about international relations than you will ever know, Ken?

 

I guess we can't all know as much as Ken and Condi. It was a trite and mean thing to say to JB, Ken. IMO, you ought to apologize. But it's obviously your decision to make.

 

Until it is realized that a lasting peace in the middle east is impossible, this side of Christ's return, we will continue to flop around like a sucker fish on the bank of the Rogue River. The battle is against principalities and powers, not Imam's and their Koran. Unfortunately, the fight must be against the Koran and Mullah's who are the pawns in use by those powers.

Virtually everything Condi has been a part of in middle east negotiations has been wrong headed. Giving up land for peace has proven disastrous, just like many said it would. Now Israel must once again turn to B. Netanyahu and the conservative Likud's to restore a semblence of peace through more war.

 

I would have bet money on a Hamas win and it is a good thing because it clears the air. If God has a special interest in Israel he can handle the situation, himself.

 

"Condoleezza Rice has forgotten more in the area of international relations than you will ever know."

Hitler and Stalin knew even more.

 

I am going to find some Israeli discussion boards and start a draft Sharansky movement.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I don't want to sidetrack the thread, but Hitler was a buffoon. He pushed and pushed until he got his war. I see nothing in Hitler that spells brilliant in international relations. The only cunning I find in Hitler is his ability to grab and hold onto power, but that has a lot to do with his willingness to do anything to achieve those ends. No true diplomat shares such a willingness.

 

Colin Powell was no better and basically they are both Bush puppets. They act/acted in accordance with the wishes of their boss, GW Bush.

 

Colin Powell was no better and basically they are both Bush puppets. They act/acted in accordance with the wishes of their boss, GW Bush. </font>[/QUOTE]Duh-Huh, they are political appointees of the president and serve at the pleasure of the president. That is the US system.

 

And why is that, Joseph? A long time ago when discussing the Road Map, I had posted links where the US threatened to withhold funds and loan guarantees, etc., if Israel didn't comply. Then a new twist happened in the media and the withdrawal suddenly became a Sharon idea. That is why I have repeatedly said that the withdrawal was part of the Bush Road Map. And at any rate, Condi was just repeating to Israel what she had been told to say by the administration on her last visit. Also, I have repeatedly said that Abbas was nothing but a terrorist and then got the Bush administration approval and everything was supposed to be swell, even though I knew it wasn't and wouldn't be - long ago. You can't negotiate with terrorists. The administration set up a double standard for dealing with terrorists - we supposedly declare war on terrorists but Israel was made to hand land over to them. Israel should have told Bush to take a walk.

 

What the administration is playing is the waiting game, an old diplomatic way of dealing with an insoluable situation. Since almost everyone, whether they admit it or not, can see no way for a permanent peaceful solution, what they are all trying to do is string the situation out to keep it from blowing up. Sooner or later, this won't work, and a lot of people will die in a major Middle East war. Maybe that will be Armageddon. Whatever the case, each adminstration tries to not be the one in charge when the baloon goes up.

Diplomacy remember, is an art, not a science. It is said that we should never underestimate the potential damage that can be caused by stupid people in large groups. When you crank in 4,000 years of bad history, religion, and the most precious and vital economic commodity in history (oil), I am surprised it is not worse already. There have been wars over opium, grain, spices, slaves, and gold, and none of them have ever had the power of oil to wreak havoc on an entire world.

If you read the books of Tuchman and Keegan, among others, you find that the diplomats who stumbled their way into WW1 were all professionally trained, but they could not unravel the alliance system nor back off the generals who were crying out for mobilization because of their exacting railroad schedules and intricate war plans. As it turned out, the professional military planners were as clueless as the professional diplomats.

Why? Because they are all human beings and they are dealing with human beings in large groups. Who among our starry-eyed professors in the 60s and 70s would have forseen that the next world war was going to be a religious war, not an ideological one?

My favorite International Relations professors were retired professional diplomats, and they all had one thing in common that the politicals don't have--a cynicism that you could slice with a knife. Of all endeavors, perhaps diplomacy is the one most subject to Murphy's Law.

 

Well, Major B, they might be playing a waiting game, but they have all been throwing our tax dollars at the terrorists for a long time and in typical US government fashion, with no accountability.

 

And so has every other administration done with someone since the US became a diplomatic player. Money is the grease of diplomacy.

Nasty business.

 

And why is that, Joseph? A long time ago when discussing the Road Map, I had posted links where the US threatened to withhold funds and loan guarantees, etc., if Israel didn't comply. Then a new twist happened in the media and the withdrawal suddenly became a Sharon idea. That is why I have repeatedly said that the withdrawal was part of the Bush Road Map. And at any rate, Condi was just repeating to Israel what she had been told to say by the administration on her last visit. Also, I have repeatedly said that Abbas was nothing but a terrorist and then got the Bush administration approval and everything was supposed to be swell, even though I knew it wasn't and wouldn't be - long ago. You can't negotiate with terrorists. The administration set up a double standard for dealing with terrorists - we supposedly declare war on terrorists but Israel was made to hand land over to them. Israel should have told Bush to take a walk. </font>[/QUOTE]1. I was using sarcasm. I don't really like that mediocrity on her part.

2. Yes, Bush deserves part of the blame for this, as does just about every American President going back to I think Reagan for or perhaps Carter, for carrying on this same wrong headed policy to bring peace in Israel.

3. The Israelis, however, were not forced to give up anything by the USA. The majority of Israelis polled at the time were strongly in favor of the pullout.

4. Whether or not they still would be for this obviously flawed plan or not is yet to be seen.

5. My hope is that Sharansky will run for PM and institute common sense into their policy of reciprocity and accountability as a means to achieve peace.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I somewhat disagree with that. I think they could produce a peace that last for quite a while. There is no such thing as permanent peace on this earth. That will only happen in Heaven. But, I do believe that Reciprocity and Accountability could lead the two sides to a lasting peace. To my knowledge, this has yet to be tried.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Reciprocity and Accountability - nice words, Joseph. But which comes first? Accountability then Reciprocity or Reciprocity then Accountability? Egg/chicken/egg thingy???

Reciprocity and Accountability won't work with terrorists - they ain't normal people you can work with. You have a better chance housebreaking a dog or potty training a toddler.