Lordship Salvation and Eternal Security!

[Havensdad]

I didn't expect him to do anything. I read the story for what it says...not what you want it to say. He didn't want to give up self.

When did he say that? He never said "Jesus I want to be saved, but when I get their I want to go through heaven stealing."

You have to "assume" that the new life of Christ, would have the same type of effect it had on every OTHER person who was saved in scripture: they continue to follow Christ. Scripture states that those who do not do so, were never His.


The story of the rich young ruler is undeniable> it points to exactly what is being discussed here. He was unwilling to submit to Christ, and went away unsaved.

But actually since this is a claim often made by the other side, lets look> did the thief produce fruit? YES! A changed attitude, and submission to Christ as Lord!

Luk 23:39 And one of the hanged criminals blasphemed Him, saying, If you are Christ, save Yourself and us.
Luk 23:40 But answering, the other rebuked him, saying, Do you not fear God, since you are in the same condemnation.
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly so, for we receive the due reward of our deeds(he confesses His sins; he is repentant), but this Man has done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.


There is no doubt here, the thief changed his ways, even though he was unable to demonstrate it.

 

[skypair]

Bringing someone to Christ and maturing that person is part of "making disciples." That's how I understand the text.

Me too! :thumbs: And I noticed the "and" that separated two separate "steps" -- justification and sanctification -- too!

IOW, you could disciple them without saving them OR save them without discipling them. Sorta that "Paul-Apollos" thing (1Cor 3:6) where one plants, the other waters, but God gives the increase. :godisgood:

skypair

 

[Marcia]

What does the story of the rich young ruler tell us? He refused to obey when Christ told him to sell everything and give it to the poor. This wasn't a negative comment on having money. It was a comment on making something other than Christ as our lord. The rich young ruler went away lost because he wasn't willing to accept Christ as Lord.

What about this statement by Jesus?

Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.


This says that there is a cost associated with with becoming a Christian. We need to understand that's the case and accept it.

Your answers are not at all connected to the specific questions I was asking of Havensdad.

 

[Marcia]

What does the story of the rich young ruler tell us? He refused to obey when Christ told him to sell everything and give it to the poor. This wasn't a negative comment on having money. It was a comment on making something other than Christ as our lord. The rich young ruler went away lost because he wasn't willing to accept Christ as Lord.

What about this statement by Jesus?

Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.


This says that there is a cost associated with with becoming a Christian. We need to understand that's the case and accept it.

I know all this already - what you say misses the points of my posts. The posts were not about the fact there is a cost in following Christ. I agree with that.

Go back and read my posts and all the posts by Havensdad to which I was responding. In one case, it was referring to a passage and then saying those that were there obeyed and believed and were saved, when in that particular passage, there is no reference for this at all. In other words, the bible does not tell us there were people there who obeyed and were saved. That is what I was pointing out. But I think Havensdad and I sort of hashed it out.

Here's one point:
Where does the bible say "Obey and you will be saved?"

Or "Salvation comes by obedience."

I think the OT shows us that no one was saved by obedience because they were all so disobedient!!

We are saved by grace through faith.

 

[Amy.G]

This says that there is a cost associated with with becoming a Christian. We need to understand that's the case and accept it.

The only "cost" involved in my salvation was admitting I had sinned against God. Nobody told me I had to accept the "cost" of following Christ. It wasn't until after I was saved that I understood what it means to follow Christ.

 

[Marcia]

Originally Posted by BaptistBeliever
What does the story of the rich young ruler tell us? He refused to obey when Christ told him to sell everything and give it to the poor. This wasn't a negative comment on having money. It was a comment on making something other than Christ as our lord. The rich young ruler went away lost because he wasn't willing to accept Christ as Lord.

Even if the rich young ruler had given away all his wealth, that would not have saved him. It would have to be faith that would save him, right?

Btw, I lost all my friends when I was saved -- all of them. And I was a single mother at the time with no Christian friends and no family around (and my parents were not believers). So I experienced a cost right off - but it was not in my mind at all at the moment I believed in Jesus.

 

[TCGreek]

Me too! :thumbs: And I noticed the "and" that separated two separate "steps" -- justification and sanctification -- too!

IOW, you could disciple them without saving them OR save them without discipling them. Sorta that "Paul-Apollos" thing (1Cor 3:6) where one plants, the other waters, but God gives the increase. :godisgood:

skypair

But from the point of conversation on has to do with "making disciples," agreed?

 

[skypair]

But from the point of conversation on has to do with "making disciples," agreed?

Absolutely!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Even if the rich young ruler had given away all his wealth, that would not have saved him. It would have to be faith that would save him, right?

Right on!

Btw, I lost all my friends when I was saved -- all of them.

I'm sure Calvies would agree -- the "salvation part" cost you nothing! It's what happens afterward where you start "counting the costs." Many in your shoes would have gone back to the world rather than to follow Jesus. They are saved; they know it; nothing anyone can do about it. Praise God you chose to follow Jesus and may His grace be sufficient, Marcia! Great testimony!

skypair

 

[JustChristian]

Even if the rich young ruler had given away all his wealth, that would not have saved him. It would have to be faith that would save him, right?

Btw, I lost all my friends when I was saved -- all of them. And I was a single mother at the time with no Christian friends and no family around (and my parents were not believers). So I experienced a cost right off - but it was not in my mind at all at the moment I believed in Jesus.

Semantics. It would have been his faith that would have caused him to obey Jesus.

 

[Marcia]

Right on!

I'm sure Calvies would agree -- the "salvation part" cost you nothing! It's what happens afterward where you start "counting the costs." Many in your shoes would have gone back to the world rather than to follow Jesus. They are saved; they know it; nothing anyone can do about it. Praise God you chose to follow Jesus and may His grace be sufficient, Marcia! Great testimony!

skypair

Thanks for the encouraging words, Skypair! :wavey: I still miss those friends although I've moved away from Atlanta where they were. I feel sad about them as I'm sure most of them are not saved but still caught up in the New Age as I was. I am so grateful for God's mercy!

 

[Marcia]

Semantics. It would have been his faith that would have caused him to obey Jesus.

Right, but it's his faith that would have saved him. The obedience would come afterwards. Salvation, then discipleship and obedience. Of course, our walk with the Lord is not a consistent line moving forward, imo. It's forward, forward, back, forward, forward, forward, back, back, forward, back, forward, etc. Good thing for us the Lord is faithful since we are not! :godisgood:

 

[JustChristian]

Right, but it's his faith that would have saved him. The obedience would come afterwards. Salvation, then discipleship and obedience. Of course, our walk with the Lord is not a consistent line moving forward, imo. It's forward, forward, back, forward, forward, forward, back, back, forward, back, forward, etc. Good thing for us the Lord is faithful since we are not! :godisgood:

Read the Bible. What did Jesus say to him?

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

 

[Marcia]

Read the Bible. What did Jesus say to him?

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

But I think we already cleared up the fact that even if this man had done this but had not had faith in Jesus he would not have been saved. Or are you saying the mere act of selling his possessions and giving to the poor would have saved him?

I can see that perhaps if the man had obeyed without faith, he might then have had faith later, but that does not mean we are saved by obedience.

 

[skypair]

But I think we already cleared up the fact that even if this man had done this but had not had faith in Jesus he would not have been saved. Or are you saying the mere act of selling his possessions and giving to the poor would have saved him?

I can see that perhaps if the man had obeyed without faith, he might then have had faith later, but that does not mean we are saved by obedience.

You're right, Marcia. The poor -- not rich -- guy had done all he knew to do and Jesus agreed that he had an "OT salvation." But would he follow? Would he become a disciple and "open his eyes" even more to the "kingdom?"

skypair