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Lordship Salvation? - Part Two

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by DeafPosttrib, Jul 16, 2007.

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  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    There is already page 31 so far. So, that topic is about to be closed anytime. So, let continue to discuss into part two.

    Lacy,

    You say:

    Oh please. :rolleyes:

    Your opinion. Not what actual he thinks. He knew 'eternal life' speaks of there is life beyond death, because he never hear premillennialism before.

    There is much misunderstanding and misintepreting what John(book of Revelation), and Peter(2 Peter 3:8) are talking about. 2 Peter 3:8 of 'a thousand years' is a figuratively meaning, not literal specific or exactly numbers of length years. It speaks of how quick, the day of the Lord shall be occured like as 'thief in the night'.

    Rev. 20:1-7 of 'a thousand years' is symbolic and figurative meaning. This passage telling us about dead saints, these who refused compromising with the world, already overcome them, their souls are now in the heaven with the Lord. They are reigning with Christ, this is the first resurrection, which speak of eternal life. 'A thousand years' represents length time span between Calvary to second advent, it could be 2500, or 3000 years or so...it doesn't take literal exact or specific the length time. Church's reigning with Christ is not limited, it is everlasting. Also, Rev. 20:7 tells us, when the thousand years are finished, then satan shall be loosed out of the midst. This mean, after the gospel of the kingdom is completed, whilst apostasy becomes climax, God fed up with Church, allow Satan loosed out of the midst(2 Thess. 2:3-8), then Satan shall persecute against the church for a little season.

    Right now, we are now in the realized millennium, because Christ already defeated Satan at Calvary, gave the key(power)-Rev. 20:1-3 to the Church, to spread out the gospel over the world (Matt. 16:18-19), the gospel of the kingdom have been lastly for almost 2000 years since Calvary to now. 'A thousand years' gives us the picture means length time span between Calvary to second advent. Dead saints in the heaven are now already reigning with Christ for almost 2000 years, even, it could be last 2500, or 3000, or 4000 or more. Then, when the apostasy become climax, God fed up with Church, allow Satan out of the midst(speak of his spiritually restraining) to persecute against Church for a little season. Then, Christ comes with angels, to destroy the world, and sends Satan to the lake of fire. Christ shall sit on the throne, to judge the world. That what Revelation chapter 20 is all about.

    You say:

    You seems think rich man was actual saved. But, verse 17 says, rich man said to Christ, "Good Master", obivously, he was not actual saved. He has the wrong idea who Christ is. Then, verse 19 - Christ told him, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God."

    Judasim oftens called Jesus, 'the good master', also, in John 3:2, Nicodemus came to Christ, and called him, " 'Rabbi', we know that thou art a 'teacher' come from God...". There is no difference between 'Rabbi' and 'master', both are same meaning. Nicodemus was not truly saved yet at the time, he came to ask Christ. Same with rich man of Mark chapter 10.

    Obivously, the rich man was not saved, he has the wrong idea, who Christ is. Rich man heard rumours spread out around Israel on Jesus. Also, rich man was grew up in his own religion - Judasim. He does good works, kept laws, follow Ten Commandments. Many religions and Judasim doing the same things. They are not truly saved.

    Rich man was desired want to have eternal life. So, he decided came to see Christ, and asked him, what things that he missed, need to do to have eternal life. Obivous, he was not truly saved. Many religions have their desire looking for have eternal life - salvation in heaven. They do many good works trying to enter into heaven. But, they missed it, because they did not ask Christ to accpet him, and not even, willing to follow him 100% all the way.

    Nowhere in the context of Mark chapter 10 mentioned of 'a thousand years'. Neither, Christ saying 'the kingdom of God' is so called, a thousand years' either.

    Use our common sense, the kingdom of God is not come with observation, it is from above which is spiirtual. It brings to us of the gospel, what Christ is all about- salvation.

    Sadly, the rich man was bitter and sorrowly, refuse willing to give up everything what he possessed them, give them to the poor, he went on his own way. Now he is in hell, he was not saved. He is already lost. Period.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
    #1 DeafPosttrib, Jul 16, 2007
  2. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    DPT, you are a brave soul! :)

    I don't think the rich young ruler was saved either.
     
    #2 Amy.G, Jul 16, 2007
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    DPT & Amy,

    Count my vote in there, too.
     
    #3 npetreley, Jul 16, 2007
  4. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Wonder why Jesus didn't tell him he was lacking faith? I guess Jesus just had a bad slip of the tongue that day, cause he "really and truly" lacked two things right?
     
    #4 J. Jump, Jul 16, 2007
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Sigh.....
    If you continue reading I think you will see the point is that salvation is impossible for man to achieve on his own merit.

    For what is impossible for man is possible with God.

    We cannot save ourselves by following the commandments. They only reveal our sin. A schoolmaster as Paul said. We need the righteousness of God.

    As a Jew, the young ruler would naturally have asked "what shall I DO?"

    I think Jesus was telling him that there is nothing that you can DO. If the young ruler was honest, he would have admitted that he did not keep all the commandments perfectly. But, he didn't. So, Jesus moved on to show him he WAS a sinner in that he valued his posessions above eternal life.

    As He said elsewhere, "this is the work of God, to believe in the One He has sent". (my paraphrase)

    God did the "work".
     
    #5 Amy.G, Jul 16, 2007
  6. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    With all due respect what you think or what I think or the pope thinks or Joe Blow thinks is of no matter. It ONLY matters what Scripture says and Jesus said this guy was only lacking one thing and it wasn't faith.

    So you want to speculate like netreply that this man was lying when there is NOTHING in the text that says that or even hints at that. You are comfortable creating doctrine out of speculation? Jesus said he lacked one thing. Was Jesus lying or was He telling the Truth? What was the ONE thing this man lacked?

    This is actually another true statement however you are equating sinner with eternally damned. Saved people are still sinners as well.

    Still wondering why Jesus didn't tell him he was lacking faith and just let him walk away without telling him the truth. Don't you find that just a bit odd?
     
    #6 J. Jump, Jul 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2007
  7. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Well, what I "think" is part of scripture interpretation. That is my interpretation and I know others that share my view so I'm not hanging on a limb here. If you disagree with me, that's fine. But you have no "proof" either, just you're own interpretation.
     
    #7 Amy.G, Jul 16, 2007
  8. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Anyone want to address my reasons.

    The man was already saved. here is the evidence.

    .(Mark 10:18 - He knew and acknowledged who Jesus was)
    .(Mark 10:21 - Jesus loved him. There's one for you Calvinists.)
    .(Mark 10:21- Christ instructed him to do works in order to inherit this "eternal life. He did not tell him to believe in him like he did the woman at the well,")
    .(Mark 10:14, 23,24,25 - The context is not salvation in the eternal age, it is the kingdom age.)
     
    #8 Lacy Evans, Jul 16, 2007
  9. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    I don't have an interpretation. I'm simply re-stating what the text SAYS. Was Jesus lying or was He telling this man the truth? Did he lack one thing or not? Did this man lack faith or didn't he?

    This isn't interpretation . . . what does the text SAY?
     
    #9 J. Jump, Jul 16, 2007
  10. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Where did you get that???? I never said any such thing. I said it is impossible for man to be saved on his own merit. He needs a Savior.


    He didn't have to walk away. He chose to. People do it all the time. Should Jesus have tackled him to the ground and forced him to listen? Lots of people walked away from Jesus because "His sayings were too hard for them".
     
    #10 Amy.G, Jul 16, 2007
  11. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Right here in your post.

    So, Jesus moved on to show him he WAS a sinner in that he valued his posessions above eternal life.

    You are equating sinner with eternally damned. You don't think this man was saved and you say Jesus was showing him he was a sinner/unsaved.

    I'm merely pointing out that saved people still sin.

    Neither did Jesus have to let him walk away believing that he lacked one thing, which WASN'T faith. So I'm still wondering why Jesus would let this man walk away having not shared the actual truth with him.

    Again don't you find that just a bit odd? Jesus knows the Truth. He IS the Truth, and yet he let's this man walk away without even sharing the Truth with him. That's not odd to you?

    By the way I believe those "lots of people" that walked away were disciples. They were saved folks that had been following and stopped following because His teachings were hard.

    By the way do you think eternal salvation is a "hard" message or a "simple" message?
     
    #11 J. Jump, Jul 16, 2007
  12. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    This is the kind of intellectual gymanstics that destroys your credibility. It is absurd. It is not true that Jesus would have to have said he didnt have faith. Jesus could have handled it any number of ways including not saying anything at all.

    What He did say is how hardly they that have riches enter into the Kingdom of God.

    Kingdom= authority and power to rule.(not a physical kingdom)
     
    #12 2 Timothy2:1-4, Jul 16, 2007
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Oh, I can't wait to say this. It doesn't matter what you believe, what does scripture say?

    There is nothing in scripture that says those people who walked away were saved.

    1 John 2:19
    They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
     
    #13 Amy.G, Jul 16, 2007
  14. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    So, the instructions to sell what he had, distribute it to the poor, and follow him were impossible?

    That's all he lacked. I know plenty of people who have sold all they have, etc.

    Mother Theresa comes to mind.

    Do you think she's saved because she sold all her stuff?
     
    #14 Hope of Glory, Jul 17, 2007
  15. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Bingo! You get it! It's a Kingdom message, not a "how do I get into the family" message!
     
    #15 Hope of Glory, Jul 17, 2007
  16. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    The Scriptures say they were disciples.

    Amy G. says they weren't really disciples.

    Guess which on has more authority?
     
    #16 Hope of Glory, Jul 17, 2007
  17. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    Oh I get it alright. But you do not. Kingdom is Christs authority not a physical kingdom. It very much is a get in the family message. To reduce it to just the Millenium is another gospel. and we all know what paul wrote about that.
     
    #17 2 Timothy2:1-4, Jul 17, 2007
  18. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Well let's just see what the Scripture says regarding this little matter:

    John 6:60 - Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
    John 6:66 - As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"

    I think Scripture speaks for itself.

    And I think it is pretty safe to say that the only thing the man lacked was one thing and it WASN'T FAITH. That's what Scripture says.
     
    #18 J. Jump, Jul 17, 2007
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Catholics consider themselves "disciples". Are they really disciples?
     
    #19 webdog, Jul 17, 2007
  20. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    No.

    That's all he lacked according to his own understanding of how to "earn" eternal life. In a similar exchange (Luke 10), Jesus said that if you do this, you will live (earn eternal life): "'love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’” He's telling the truth, but that doesn't mean we are actually able to do such things. In fact, if we could earn eternal life that way, we wouldn't need Jesus. Jesus is teaching an important lesson to people who want to justify themselves, not instructing us to earn life through works.

    No. You can't earn eternal life through works.
     
    #20 npetreley, Jul 17, 2007
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