Loss of salvation arguements compiled...

[AAA]

I am trying to compile the best arguements for the doctrine that a true born again believer can LOSE thier salvation....

I am not going to debate your points, but like I said I am trying to compile your arguements for my personal study into this very important matter..........

Please, state your best arguements (with bible verses) for this false doctrine......

Thanks for all your help.

:godisgood:

 

[BobRyan]

You have come to the right place!!

Since you do not intend to respond but are just looking for reference material -- enjoy!!


Matt 10:22 butit is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.



1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND [b]IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. [/b]
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able tograft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 [b]IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY[/b]
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; [b]for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;[/b]
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
[/quote]


Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.

2Peter 2:20-22

18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality,
those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,
to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "" A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,'' and,
""A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.''

Heb 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been
made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify
to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open same.

Peter points out that only the saints are those who are “Partakers of the Holy Spirit” having “tasted the heavenly gift” AND “the powers of the age to come”

1 Pet 5

1Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,

The “saved” experience is never called “worthless” with the result that one “ends up being burned”. Notice that Paul shows this to be the END of the person – not a mere “trial” by fire to be endured as we go on to even better things!. He says “Ends up being burned”!

Heb 6
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also
tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

 

[BobRyan]

And then there is always “Forgiveness revoked”!!

Matt 18
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Clearly God DOES see what the fully forgiven man "did" in real life.

These texts do not describe a defacto “drift into heaven”. They show ‘conditional salvation’ explicitly!

Here we see that the "Righteous man" is the one that may "turn" and "DO" things that are evil - and THEN the result is -- the death of OSAS>


Ezek 18

8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully--he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD.
…
15"He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife,
16or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
17he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father's iniquity, he will surely live.

18"As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
19"Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20"The person who sins will die The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22"All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right ' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.






Under conditional salvation there is a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

1Cor 9

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, [b]but we an imperishable[/b].
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body[/b] and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

The OSAS doctrine guts the very core of the “motivation” we see in 1Cor 9 as Paul EXPLICITLY says “LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified”. OSAS goes after that point – directly, explicitly and without remorse.

 

[BobRyan]

Simple Question for Calvinists and OSAS promoters – who is the “WE” and the “US” in the following text?

What is the meaning of “He Also will deny US”?

[quote]2 Tim 2[/b]
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 [b]If we endure, we will also reign with Him; [b]If we deny[/B] Him, He also [b]will deny us;[/B]
13 [b]If we are faithless[/b], He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things[/b], and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
[/quote]

In fact it is the condition of the “Shipwreck of faith” that Paul has already warned Timothy about. The very condition that OSAS denies.

1Tim 1

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them[/b] you fight the good fight,
19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be [b]taught not to blaspheme.

It is as James says – a soul in death – doomed.

James 5

19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back[/b], let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

How can wander from the truth if they were never in the truth?

What is the result of bringing them back? “Save their soul from death”.

This also shows that the sins committed AFTER coming to Christ – DO count! “And will cover a multitude of sins”!. Hence the instruction in 1John 1:9 “If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us… AND to cleans us “ and this is post conversion for John says 1John 2:1 “These things I write to you that you sin not BUT if anyone does sin” (after coming to Christ) we “ have an advocate with the Father”. The fact of sin, sinning, repentance, forgiveness AFTER salvation is stated clearly.

 

[BobRyan]

While we are on the subject --

Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9


SOME of the OSAS people claim to believe in eternal hell and to believe that this failure to persevere simply means that you are “OSAS Saved anyway but without persevering”.

Question:
HOW can it be WORSE? Worse to live with Christ forever than burn in hell forever??


Certainly this was a great point by MMAN - starting with post 9 of the thread linked to above!!

 

[David Lamb]

I am trying to compile the best arguements for the doctrine that a true born again believer can LOSE thier salvation....

I am not going to debate your points, but like I said I am trying to compile your arguements for my personal study into this very important matter..........

Please, state your best arguements (with bible verses) for this false doctrine......

Thanks for all your help.

:godisgood:

Sorry, I cannot help. Words such as those of Jesus in John 10.28-29:

28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."​

and those glorious words of Romans 8.35-39, seem clear enough to me:

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

I'll say no more, as I know you don't want a discussion on this.

 

[BobRyan]

Hint - don't read the scriptures given in the other posts on this thread if you want to keep with that interpretation.

(BTW - though AAA may not be looking for discussion at some point it would be good to have)

 

[BobRyan]

Bump -

Blessing to those who read the scriptures that are "inconvenient" in the face of man-made traditions to the contrary.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

David,

You quoted John 10:28-29, this speaks for sheep who hear and follow are in Christ's hand in John 10:27. Or, if we stopped listening and follow Christ, then we would be loosed out of his hand.

Romans 8:35-39 talks about God's love, not salvation. Everything cannot separate from God's love toward us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

David Lamb: and those glorious words of Romans 8.35-39, seem clear enough to me:

HP: Just remember, those were the words of a man that also stated that he had lived in all good conscience unto that day, and testified concerning his clear conscience before God and man. If you desire to have the confidence he spoke about in the verses you mention, you need to be in possession of a like conscience, void of offense between yourself and God and your fellowman. :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

David,

You quoted John 10:28-29, this speaks for sheep who hear and follow are in Christ's hand in John 10:27. Or, if we stopped listening and follow Christ, then we would be loosed out of his hand.

Romans 8:35-39 talks about God's love, not salvation. Everything cannot separate from God's love toward us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

This is a good point. "God so loved the world" means God loves even those who reject the Gospel and burn in the lake of fire.

 

[drfuss]

Sorry, I cannot help. Words such as those of Jesus in John 10.28-29:

28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."


​

and those glorious words of Romans 8.35-39, seem clear enough to me:

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


​

I'll say no more, as I know you don't want a discussion on this.

drfuss: If OSAS was correct, it would also include that "even if we ourselves wanted to separate from Christ, we could not". That is one reason why I don't believe OSAS. I just wanted to point out that these scriptures do not establish OSAS, and therefore do not counter the scriptures Bob Ryan has posted..

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Drfuss: OSAS was correct, it would also include that "even if we ourselves wanted to separate from Christ, we could not".

HP: OSAS promotes and advocates the clear notion of not only a sinning religion but a religion that can encompass a sinning lifestyle, a consistent practicing the same old sins.
Recently there was a singing songwriter that came to the local assembly. He told of getting saved at six years old, only to grow up and for fifteen long years of his adult married life he and his wife did numerous kids of drugs on almost a daily basis, frequented bars, nightclubs etc, and yet claimed to be a Christian the whole time. He stated that he repented every day for his sins.

If that is not a lifestyle of practicing sin I do not know what could possibly be. I am grateful if in fact he has ceased from this former lifestyle, but with the comment, something to the effect that he could live that way again although he now doesn’t want to, makes me wonder as to the depth of his commitment. If he has ever really repented it is in spite of his mixed up notions as to the real meaning of repentance. I know that God can indeed work around a lot of mixed up notions. I certainly hope that He has in the case of this individual.

 

[drfuss]

HP writes:
Quote:
Drfuss: OSAS was correct, it would also include that "even if we ourselves wanted to separate from Christ, we could not".

Drfuss: HP left out the word "if" in the above quote.

Getting back to the OP, John 10: 27-29 should be considered scripture that supports a Christian being able to lose (or forfeit) one's salvation. John 10:27 says "and they follow Me". If OSAS were correct, it would say "and they cannot (or will not) stop following Me".

Romans 8:35-39 should also be considered in support of a Christian being able to lose (or forfeit) one's salvation. Note all the things listed that cannot separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. The point of the scripture was to include everything that cannot separate us from the love of God. If OSAS is correct, it would also say "even we cannot separate ourselves from the love of God...".

In summary, you can add John 10:27-29 and Romans 8:35-39 to your requested list.

Sorry my previous post was not clear on these points of adding these scriptures in response to the OP..

 

[BobRyan]

Getting back to the OP, John 10: 27-29 should be considered scripture that supports a Christian being able to lose (or forfeit) one's salvation. John 10:27 says "and they follow Me". If OSAS were correct, it would say "and they cannot (or will not) stop following Me".

Actually there are two OSAS paths and neither of them work in John 10.

1. "And they will-not can-not stop following Me".
2. "And whether they follow Me or not they are mine"

Neither of these OSAS solutions work in scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

While we are on the subject --

Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9


SOME of the OSAS people claim to believe in eternal hell and to believe that this failure to persevere simply means that you are “OSAS Saved anyway but without persevering”.

Question:
HOW can it be WORSE? Worse to live with Christ forever than burn in hell forever??


Certainly this was a great point by MMAN - starting with post 9 of the thread linked to above!!

On the "bogus way to salvation OSAS" thread it was pointed out that some have tried to invent a "1000 years of hell" as a kind of "purgatory" for the people in this "better to never have known Christ" scenario to be in and THEN go to heaven after getting out of hell.

But that still begs the question - how is that WORSE than burning in hell for eternity as one who never knew Christ? It seems there is NO scenario that saves OSAS in this case.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[David Lamb]

While we are on the subject --



On the "bogus way to salvation OSAS" thread it was pointed out that some have tried to invent a "1000 years of hell" as a kind of "purgatory" for the people in this "better to never have known Christ" scenario to be in and THEN go to heaven after getting out of hell.

But that still begs the question - how is that WORSE than burning in hell for eternity as one who never knew Christ? It seems there is NO scenario that saves OSAS in this case.

in Christ,

Bob

I must admit that I have not come across such a belief. (I missed it on the other thread). As you say, it sounds like Roman Catholicism's "purgatory", except that the time in purgatory is not known.

However, bible passages like Romans 8.31-39 seem to be quite clear that if a person truly is a Christian, nothing will separate him/her from Christ:

31 ¶ What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that given certain texts (Romans 8 being a good example) one could easily find room for OSAS. (At least some space where the salient points in OSAS vs conditional Salvation are concerned due to the affirming nature of the text and silence on the salient issue)

The problem is that given the great list of texts on page one of this thread that go directly to the boundary condition where OSAS needs to make it's point in a kind of 'even in this case you remain in Christ, in fellowship, saved and accepted by God' argument -- what we find is explicit statements about "severed from Christ, fallen from grace... neither will He spare you... better if they never knew.." etc.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Oasis]

David Lamb

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAA
I am trying to compile the best arguements for the doctrine that a true born again believer can LOSE thier salvation....

I am not going to debate your points, but like I said I am trying to compile your arguements for my personal study into this very important matter..........

Please, state your best arguements (with bible verses) for this false doctrine......

Thanks for all your help.



David said-
Sorry, I cannot help. Words such as those of Jesus in John 10.28-29:


28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."


and those glorious words of Romans 8.35-39, seem clear enough to me:



35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

Might I add one David?

"To him who is able to keep you from falling
and to present you before his glorious presence
without fault and with great joy"-Jude 24 NIV