Loss of salvation arguements compiled...

[DQuixote]

Every scripture posted to prove that salvation can be lost is simply a misunderstanding of that scripture. It's like those guys who find 265 contraditions in the Bible. Everyone of their "facts" can be shown to be in error. Years ago I stumbled into a room full of atheists. Right away they threw a few contradictions at me. The very first one thrown demonstrated conclusively that the atheist did not understand the scriptures he used in his argument. According to scripture (1 Cor 2:14), it was impossible for him to do so! So I repeat my first sentence: every scripture posted to prove that salvation can be lost is simply a misunderstanding of that scripture. It is not being spiritually discerned in context. Finis. Therefore, let not your heart be troubled.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DQ: Every scripture posted to prove that salvation can be lost is simply a misunderstanding of that scripture.

HP: Try something constructive. Take one of the passages in question and show the list HOW it is being misused. Then we can discuss it. It might save your hands from the injury sustained by merely beating on the pulpit. :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Every scripture posted to prove that salvation can be lost is simply a misunderstanding

As compelling as that argument is --

This one is equally compelling "every scripture used to support OSAS is simply a misunderstanding"

The better approach is to actually post a substantive objective well-reasoned argument against the scriptures posted on page one -- or simply to accept them.

Pick one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Of course you do.

Lots of people will parse scripture, as you do, to make it fit their predetermined beliefs.

The strange part is your pressing need to make others believe as you do.

I do not "make others believe as I do".

Rather I SHOW the consistent focused teaching of scripture on this topic and those who oppose those texts "feel the need" to complain while not actually "showing" any problem to exist in what i have quoted.

And the objective unbiased reader will always "notice" that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9


SOME of the OSAS people claim to believe in eternal hell and to believe that this failure to persevere simply means that you are “OSAS Saved anyway but without persevering”.

Question:
HOW can it be WORSE? Worse to live with Christ forever than burn in hell forever??


Certainly this was a great point by MMAN - starting with post 9 of the thread linked to above!!

 

[BobRyan]

Is this a case of God saying to Himself "I have to remember to fear for if I did not spare the unbelieving Jews then neither will I spare the faithful saints who do not persevere -- so I have to remember to make them persevere"??


Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able tograft them in again.



Is it even possible to take any of these "warning texts" and turn them so instead of God warning us -- it is God warning Himself regarding the fact that He needs to stay focused and remember to make us Persevere?

Matt 18
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''


TRUE statement about those who ARE in Christ and joined to Christ – being SEVERED from Christ – or God reminding Himself that this is something that can never happen?

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Let the objective unbiased reader decide for him/her self.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan:

The better approach is to actually post a substantive objective well-reasoned argument against the scriptures posted on page one -- or simply to accept them.

Pick one.

This is a logical called the False Dicotemy.

But I'll just rephrase it so everybody can understand
better:

The better approach is to post your disagreement
with the scriptures and me.

So, why don't you agree with me that the
scriptures you listed on page one of this topic
don't show GOD'S UNALTERABLE TRUTH:
ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER.

What good is a salvation that doesn't save you?
What kind of a Supreme Being can't keep you
saved? ETERNAL LIFE that ends isn't ETERNAL LIFE.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Gal 5:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
For brethren, ye haue beene called vnto liberty,
onely vse not libertie for an occasion to the flesh,
but by loue serue one another.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan:

So, why don't you agree with me that the
scriptures you listed on page one of this topic
don't show GOD'S UNALTERABLE TRUTH:
ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER.

Ok THAT is a great example of false dicotomy thanks for providing it.

Still the point remains for the unbiased objective reader no matter how you choose to phrase it -- at some point a substantive reponse to the scriptures given here just HAS to be posted to make the case for OSAS "anyway" when it comes to those texts.

I am afraid there is no escaping that little detail.

What good is a salvation that doesn't save you?
What kind of a Supreme Being can't keep you
saved? ETERNAL LIFE that ends isn't ETERNAL LIFE.

That is the falacy of "what good is it to create Adam perfect, sinless and ALIVE if you are going to let him CHOOSE to rebel and fall into condemnation?".

Too late to go back over that road again. That free-will decision has already been made which means that the argument you are attempting already failed to hold up.

Now on with the texts at hand. (EVEN the texts on THIS page wiill do as soon as someone feels they can refute them.)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Andre]

So I repeat my first sentence: every scripture posted to prove that salvation can be lost is simply a misunderstanding of that scripture. It is not being spiritually discerned in context. Finis. Therefore, let not your heart be troubled.

This is fine as a statement of what you believe to be the case. Of course, it does not contain any argument to support your assertion. This is fine, of course - stating a position is the point of departure for making a case.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The arguments against eternal security are really arguments against the deity of Christ and the omnipotence and faithfulness of God. To argue that a true believer can lose his salvation is to argue that God is not faithful and that God is a liar.

The truth of eternal security is really pretty simple. To argue that one can lose his salvation is to argue that eternal life really isn't eternal (somethign absurd on its face) or to argue that eternal life isn't a present possession of the believer (something that denies the teaching of Scripture).

The verses Bob trots out are clearly misused, being read from his position that one must be able to lose his salvation and therefore these verses teach it. Those verses teach that true belief is evidenced by perserverance. It is utterly irrational to argue that eternal life can be lost. It makes no sense at all.

 

[Andre]

There is an issue associated with this discussion that generalizes beyond the topic at hand. Consider a text like:

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

There is no doubt that this text, as a standalone item and as understood by 21st century english speakers, is consistent with both an OSAS interpretatoin and a non OSAS interpretation. This is beyond debate in my view.

So, if someone resolves the ambiguity that is clearly present in this text in one way or the other (in the OSAS direction or in a non-OSAS direction), I think they are doing one of the following things:

1. Bringing a bias to the act of interpretation, with the bias really not being supportable by appeal to other scriptures.

2. Interpreting the text in accordance with other texts that legitimately can be used to resolve this ambiguity.

Of course, the first of these approaches is not really sound.

I tend to think that coming to a correct understanding of the issue of OSAS (and other issues for that matter) requires the application of the second of the following approaches, the first being somewhat dubious.

1. Apply a bias that is not grounded in the Scriptures to resolving the ambibuity inherent in some passage "X". Then use the resulting definitive interpretation of passage X to resolve ambiguity that might be present in other passages. The result will appear to be a strong case (when in fact, it is not).

2. Perform a kind of "system level" analyis of the Scriptures, being faithful to the fact that some individual texts are ambiguous (with respect to some item of doctrine such as OSAS). In the OJ murder case, one might argue that each item of evidence on its own was somewhat ambiguous to to establishing his guilt. But the collective effect was very damaging. I have been very "light" in my explanation of what I mean here, but I do not want to make the post too long.

Many of us effectively opt for approach 1, one reason being that it is a lot easier than approach 2.

Perhaps I am stating something rather obvious.

There can be no doubt that certain individual texts are indeed ambiguous in respect to certaim matters of doctrine - at least in terms of the english renderings of the these texts and the way we english speaking westerners interpret statements.

 

[Andre]

The arguments against eternal security are really arguments against the deity of Christ and the omnipotence and faithfulness of God.

Can you please explain why?

The truth of eternal security is really pretty simple. To argue that one can lose his salvation is to argue that eternal life really isn't eternal (somethign absurd on its face) or to argue that eternal life isn't a present possession of the believer (something that denies the teaching of Scripture).

Can you expand a bit on what you mean here. Despite your seeming claim to the contrary, there is nothing conceptually incoherent with the notion that one can have eternal life on Monday and lose it on Tuesday. I think I know why you think this is "absurd" - because to have eternal life on Monday entails a statement that settles one's future. So if we claim that Fred lost his eternal life on Tuesday, this would falsify the statement that Fred was given eternal life on Monday - because the granting of eternal life on Monday settles the future irrevocably for Fred.

I do not think this is correct logic although I can understand the appeal of such a position. If I am given a job on Monday, that entails settling my employment future. But I can certainly be fired on Tuesday. To make the case that I think you want to make, you need to make the further case that the eternal life we are given cannot be taken away from us. And that case would need to be made Biblically, not by an appeal to logic.

 

[carpro]

I do not "make others believe as I do".

Rather I SHOW the consistent focused teaching of scripture on this topic and those who oppose those texts "feel the need" to complain while not actually "showing" any problem to exist in what i have quoted.

And the objective unbiased reader will always "notice" that.

in Christ,

Bob

:laugh:

Always the implication that those that don't believe your explanation of God's word are not "objective unbiased readers". Perhaps you should spend some time in front of a mirror to find the one that is biased.

 

[John Ellwood Taylor]

a few verses for non-perserverance advocates to exegete

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
¨Matthew 18:12-14 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish
¨John 17:11,12,15 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
¨1 Corinthians 1:7-9 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
- Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
¨Ephesians 1:5, 13, 14 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,…13, 14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
¨Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption
¨1 Thessalonians 5:23,24 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
¨2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

¨Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
¨1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Andre:

To make the case that I think you want to make,
you need to make the further case that the eternal life
we are given cannot be taken away from us.
And that case would need to be made Biblically,
not by an appeal to logic.

LOGICAL ERROR DETECT:
the False Dilemma*

*the term 'dilemma' is made of 'di' = two
and 'lemma' = conculsion,
proposition, statement, etc.

TRUE: An argument that is Biblical must be logical.
FALSE: A Bible truth is the opposite of a
logical truth.

Andre: " ... there is nothing conceptually incoherent
with the notion that one can have eternal life
on Monday and lose it on Tuesday.//

Actually there is.

John 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world,
that he gaue his only begotten Sonne:
that whosoeuer beleeueth in him,
should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

This Scripture defines 'everlasting life'
as 'should not perish'. To have everlasting life
is to not perish - If you are perishing, you don't
have everlasting life; if you have everlasting life
you are not perishing.

If you don't have everlasting life on Tuesday,
you cannot have had everlasting life the
Monday before - it logically contridicts
the obvious meaning of the words of Jesus
in John 3:16. Yo-Yo Salvation is NOT
Biblical nor Logical.

 

[John Ellwood Taylor]

Perhaps a question to reframe our thinking

Do the warning passages (mostly referenced here by the non-perserverance advocates) negate the clear promises made elsewhere. In particular, consider the Jeremiah passage I quoted previously, when pondering this.

As well, consider Jude 21-24:
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.
24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy.

Charles Horne in his book, Salvation noted, "It is noteworthy that when Jude exhorts us to keep ourselves in the love of God (v21) he concludes with a doxology to Him who is able to keep us from falling and present us without blemish before the presense of His glory (v24). The warning passages are means which God uses in our life to accomplish His purpose in grace."

Those who have been bought by His blood are His posession. "Nevertheless [believers] may, through the temptations of Satan and of
the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the
neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and for
a time continue therein; whereby they incur God's displeasure, and
grieve his Holy Spirit: come to be deprived of some measure of their
graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences
wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments
upon themselves" (Westminister Confession of Faith)

 

[Andre]

Andre: " ... there is nothing conceptually incoherent
with the notion that one can have eternal life
on Monday and lose it on Tuesday.//

Actually there is.

John 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world,
that he gaue his only begotten Sonne:
that whosoeuer beleeueth in him,
should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

This Scripture defines 'everlasting life'
as 'should not perish'. To have everlasting life
is to not perish - If you are perishing, you don't
have everlasting life; if you have everlasting life
you are not perishing.

If you don't have everlasting life on Tuesday,
you cannot have had everlasting life the
Monday before - it logically contridicts
the obvious meaning of the words of Jesus
in John 3:16. Yo-Yo Salvation is NOT
Biblical nor Logical.

Some of my previous posts have been a little misleading. I am presently leaning towards a view of justification that makes ths issue of OSAS academic. As per the view expressed by British theologian NT Wright (at least as I understand him), the final verdict as to whether we are justified is rendered at the end of our lives - this is when we are vindicated, not before. Of course, I realize this is a view that likely none of you hold. but I can provide Wrights' arguments if any of you are willing to give them serious consideration. But please do not ask me to post them if you are not going to read them and actually engage the material.

So for a person like me who believes that our justification is not attained until the point of death, the issue of OSAS become irrelevant - there is no possiblity to lose something that is given to you at the point of your death.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Can you please explain why?

Because you are questioning the truthfulness and power of God.

Can you expand a bit on what you mean here. Despite your seeming claim to the contrary, there is nothing conceptually incoherent with the notion that one can have eternal life on Monday and lose it on Tuesday. I think I know why you think this is "absurd" - because to have eternal life on Monday entails a statement that settles one's future. So if we claim that Fred lost his eternal life on Tuesday, this would falsify the statement that Fred was given eternal life on Monday - because the granting of eternal life on Monday settles the future irrevocably for Fred.

If one is given eternal life, then he has eternal life. If it is taken away, then it wasn't eternal, In your scenario it was only one day. One day does not equal eternal.

I do not think this is correct logic

It is not only correct logic, it is correct theologically.

If I am given a job on Monday, that entails settling my employment future. But I can certainly be fired on Tuesday.

Salvation isn't a job. It is a promise. Furthermore, if your employer promises you on Monday that you will have your job until the day you die, you can't be fired on Tuesday without maing your boss a liar.

To make the case that I think you want to make, you need to make the further case that the eternal life we are given cannot be taken away from us. And that case would need to be made Biblically, not by an appeal to logic.

It is made Scripturally by the fact that Scripture calls it eternal life. If it is taken away, then it isn't eternal, by definition. Your position would have one saying that he has life and if he perseveres/works/whatever it will be eternal life one day. the Bible says it is eternal life now.

I still don't understand the attraction of arguing against what Jesus said. I think some people are too willing to let their own minds rule over Scripture.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Larry: If one is given eternal life, then he has eternal life. If it is taken away, then it wasn't eternal, In your scenario it was only one day. One day does not equal eternal.

HP: “Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

HP: If we are to believe Scripture, we could readily assume that many of these deceived individuals are within the walls of the church today, could we not? We sure do not see any casting out devils, prophesying, etc. in the local bars. That is for certain. At any rate, they are deceived into believing they are Christians when in fact they are not.

Is it possible that these deceived individuals have at one time said the sinners prayer, or repeated after some well intentioned minister a prayer, and been told after they finish it that they have been born again, and that if any doubt, as to their standing before God, arises, it is of the enemy of there souls, for ‘OSAS’ you know, and nothing they can or will do in any way affects their eternal standing before the Lord.

Let me assume that you are with me so far, and that you, as a pastor, might believe it is possible that some of those deceived individuals might in fact be within the walls of your own congregation. Now remember, they think they are saved, they profess to be saved, but in God’s eyes (which is impossible for us in this world to see through) they are deceived. What instruction would you give your congregation that would lead one to properly examine their faith to see if in fact it is the real McCoy? Is there any sure sign that they are not true believers? If so, what are those signs?