Loss of salvation arguements compiled...

[BobRyan]

From Post 87

In Romans 11 Paul states that he is addressing saints among both the Jews AND the Gentiles. He says to the gentiles that the unfaithful Jews FELL due to unbelief.

Is this a case of God saying to Himself "I have to remember to fear for if I did not spare the unbelieving Jews then neither will I spare the faithful saints who do not persevere -- so I have to remember to make them persevere"??


Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they (unbelieving Jews) were broken off for their unbelief, but You STAND by Your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Pastor Larry said
No obviously not. Again, simply read the text. God is warning others, not himself. And he is warning the Jews that they have no advanced standing because they are Jews.

Your response Pastor Larry completely MISSed the fact that in Romans 11 Paul argues that the saints are "Both Jews AND Gentiles" and the contrast to the saints that "stand by their faith" is the Jews that "fell due to unbelief".

Pastor Larry
Quote:
In Romans 11 Paul states that he is addressing saints among both the Jews AND the Gentiles. He says to the gentiles that the unfaithful Jews FELL due to unbelief.
Yes. So?

Your proposal that this can be twisted and bent to nothing more than a warning to "unsaved jews" or even "saved jews only" fails for the "YOU" in Romans 11 included saved Gentiles.

How can this point be missed?

Furthermore OSAS failes whether it is SAVED Jews that are being warned OR it is SAVED Gentiles -- either of which "STANDS ONLY by your faith".


You have argued yourself into a corner -- a dead end.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Just for the record, I personally do not speak in terms of losing ones salvation. I fully believe that Scriptures represent salvation in three tenses,

1. I have been saved (speaking of receiving by faith the earnest of our hope of eternal life and forgiveness of sins that are past, and granted the aide of the Holy Spirit in a new and fresh way to motivate us towards love towards God and our fellowman)

2. I am being saved ( speaking of our present walk with the Lortd in obedience to His Word, without which our salvation will not have an advocate at the judgment and will not inherit eternal life)

3. We will be saved (i.e., when we stand before God at the judgment, and Christ is our Advocate before the Father, we will be judged in Christ and as such be granted eternal entrance into His kingdom, and that without end to be forever with the Lord)

Salvation cannot be thought of in its entirety without incorporating all three senses into the concept of salvation as a whole. Now, in this present world, Scripture represents salvation by faith, with us as believers, having repented and forsaken our sins and trusting in Christ, as receiving the earnest of our salvation, the promise of the hope of eternal life. In a sense, we indeed do, by faith, receive the promise of eternal life, and although it can be said we have eternal life, that does not mandate or imply in any way the notion of OSAS. Scripture is clear. We can, in this life, reject the forgiveness we have received, make shipwreck of our faith, turn from our first estate, persevere in selfishness until the end refusing to repent, and find ourselves outside of the privileges of the faith at the judgment (having Christ the Righteous as our Advocate) and as such be eternally lost.

My turn to play the taget and give Pastor Larry a needed break

Number 1 I am not sure how this places you as ta(r)get?

Do you agree that in THIS life when someone comes to Christ they are "born-again" at the moment of conversion - that a "new creation" is done as we read in 2Cor 5? That they come to salvation by faith alone - apart from the works of the law at the moment of conversion? That starting at that point they are "IN FELLOWSHIP" with Christ and by the Spirit they can cry out "Abba Father" having the Spirit of God the bears witness with their spirit that they ARE the children of God? (Rom 8).

If so - then you are fully embracing what everyone here is calling "SAVED" this side of heaven - this side of glorification.

The fact that you point to the benefits of the Gospel - past, present and future - and you admit that though we may have been born again in the PAST - and though we may PRESENTLY be "walking as Christ walked" (1John 2) -- yet in the FUTURE we may "FALL from Grace" and so be "SEVERED from Christ" (Gal 5) and in fact go to the 2nd death RATHER than going to heaven - is the same "OSAS not True" position that was shown from scripture on Page 1, and 5 and 9 and on other pages by many others incuding yourself.

How then does this place you as the proponent of any kind of OSAS at all??

What am I missing?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

From post 96

Quote:
II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."


SOME of the OSAS people claim to believe in eternal hell and to believe that this failure to persevere simply means that you are “OSAS Saved anyway but without persevering”.

Question:
HOW can it be WORSE? Worse to live with Christ forever than burn in hell forever??


Quote:
Pastor Larry

This is a question that has nothing to do with the text. It is irrelevant.


Stellar assumption -- but where is the logic? the Reason? the part where you "do the math"??

Pastor Larry said:
The text is teaching that if false teachers come to a knowledge of Christ and then turn away it is worse for them than those who never came to a knowledge of Christ.

#1. That rationalization merely bends the text AS if to argue that "LOST people became LOSTER" in that view. You seem to say that Peter is arguing in favor of persevering in the first LOST state rather than falling into a LOSTER state!! You stand the Bible on its head in an attempt to spare OSAS.

#1. In Larry's response I assume that his bias for OSAS means that the "false teacher that comes to a knowledge of Christ" is someone that is NOT saved by that knowledge -- someone who REMAINS in their LOST state.

#2. Then I note that Pastor Larry is arguing that the ENDING LOST state is worse than the LOST state of their condition while KNOWING Christ. (Hence I expose his argument as a "lost vs LOSTER" kind of failed argument).


Pastor Larry - you then folllowup on that by ducking the point entirely -- and saying

Pastor Larry
What? This doesn’t even make sense. Lost people don’t become loster (that’s not even a word). Their sins do increase, and their judgment increases with that.

So my response to you (post 104 page 11) was (and still is)

Bob to Pastor Larry
Please answer the question

your response relies on the hope that the reader will not go to the link and read the question

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...2&postcount=96

I have taken the time to reconstruct the way that you are obfuscating the dialog with your snippet quips. I show here that your approach is designed to lose focus on the point that you are ducking and it forces me to go back and reconstruct the point so the sense of the discussion remains blatantly obvious to the unbiased objective reader as we continue the dialog.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here is yet another resonstruction of a point you are trying to duck


Post 98 page 10

Bob said
Is it even possible to take any of these "warning texts" and turn them so instead of God warning us -- it is God warning Himself regarding the fact that He needs to stay focused and remember to make us Persevere?

Matt 18
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''


TRUE statement about those who ARE in Christ and joined to Christ – being SEVERED from Christ – or God reminding Himself that this is something that can never happen?

Quote:
Pastor Larry
No, that's absurd. As you can tell from the texts, the warnings are to people.

Now see - we agree on something!

Post 99 Page 10

Bob said

Quote:
Pastor Larry
Neither. Do you not understand the nature of parables? This is a teaching of Christ about forgiveness. He is teaching, as elsewhere, that those who have forgiveness in Christ WILL forgive others.

HEre are three texts that you came to with a preconceived notion about a topic, and then twisted these texts to try to make them support what you wanted them to say. As you can see, you misused all three.

...
#3. You did not show "even once" that a misuse of the text is required for me to "ask the question" after simply QUOTING the text.

#4. To take your response seriously we conclude that Christ SHOULD have made the point something like this - "My Servant I forgave you so you QUICKLY forgave your fellow servant - you could do no other and now you know why" - that WOULD have been in keeping with your argument that those forgiven can not but help themselves in quickly forgiving others.

But instead of the scenario your solution requires - what we find the text of Matt 18 is FAILURE on the part of the one who WAS truly forgiven! Thus you hvae exposed the flaw in your own position.

Post 102 Page 11

Pastor Larry
That wasn’t my point, as you will be able to tell by reading. And it wasn’t Christ’s point.

Well We agree that it was NOT Christ's point - but your statement that "Those forgiven WILL Forgive" is not the opposite of the Parable. In the parable the one REALLy forgiven is condemned for NOT really forgiving others and then WE are warned that this could happen to us IF we do not forgive others JUST AS we have really been forgiven.

There is "You of course will always forgive others IF you have really been forgiven" in the text at all!!

But the discussion has to be reconstructed given your snippet repsonse so the objective unbiased reader can see what we are talking about.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Number 1 I am not sure how this places you as ta(r)get?

HP: It places me in the sights of the OSAS’ers, does it not? Would not they clearly oppose what I am saying, therefore a target of theirs?

BR:: Do you agree that in THIS life when someone comes to Christ they are "born-again" at the moment of conversion - that a "new creation" is done as we read in 2Cor 5? That they come to salvation by faith alone - apart from the works of the law at the moment of conversion? That starting at that point they are "IN FELLOWSHIP" with Christ and by the Spirit they can cry out "Abba Father" having the Spirit of God the bears witness with their spirit that they ARE the children of God? (Rom 8).

HP: I do.

BR: If so - then you are fully embracing what everyone here is calling "SAVED" this side of heaven - this side of glorification.

HP: Well, that most likely depends. I consider our ‘saved’ position to be that of a pardon, and as such we remain in this life in a probationary state, although we are considered as ‘having been saved’ and or we are currently saved. I personally do not use the words ‘saved’ much as I believe it is a term that is misunderstood as to its meaning. I think I would prefer to refer to the saved state as entering into or retaining a present hope of eternal life.

BR: The fact that you point to the benefits of the Gospel - past, present and future - and you admit that though we may have been born again in the PAST - and though we may PRESENTLY be "walking as Christ walked" (1John 2) -- yet in the FUTURE we may "FALL from Grace" and so be "SEVERED from Christ" (Gal 5) and in fact go to the 2nd death RATHER than going to heaven - is the same "OSAS not True" position that was shown from scripture on Page 1, and 5 and 9 and on other pages by many others including yourself.

HP: Yes. That makes you a target as well, does it not?

BR: How then does this place you as the proponent of any kind of OSAS at all??

HP: It does not. Let there be no question about it. I do not believe in OSAS period. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok - got it -- thanks.

One more question please - did you "ever" hold to the idea of OSAS?

Have you ever posted on this board in favor of it?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: One more question please - did you "ever" hold to the idea of OSAS?

Have you ever posted on this board in favor of it?

HP: That's two questions as I count them.

I have never in my entire life believed OSAS was true. I have never posted anything in favor of it.

 

[David Lamb]

HP: David, no offense, but thanks be to God someone is willing to go against what is commonly seen as ‘orothodox.’ Orthodoxy! When are we going to realize that unless we can support our ideas with Scripture, reason, and experience, regurgitating the errors of past men and dogmas will not facilitate the quest for truth. It is going to take men and women that are able to objectively search for truth, such as happened in the mid 1800’s if we are going to see a revival of religion again.

I am not trying in any way to defend anyone or any dogma. Neither am I trying to just throw mud at any dogma because it is said to be ‘orthodox’ Lets take just one point this detractor Mr. Wright says is a fact of Mr. Wright’s beliefs. For now I will give his detractor the benefit of the doubt and assume he is correct.

I would like for you, with Scripture , reason etc. establish that in fact the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us as a direct result of the atonement, as opposed to a result of our fulfilling the conditions of salvation i.e., repentance and faith. Show us where 'Scripture' establishes the fact that God imputed the righteousness of Christ to us personally and individually at the cross. Is this not in fact the heart and soul of what you see as the ‘orthodox’ position you seem to be in support of, i.e., that our sins were forgiven us at the cross by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to us individually and on the account of every sin of the elect, past present and future?

No offence (or even offense :laugh: ) taken, I assure you. (I trust that no one took any from my post, either).

In retrospect, I was unwise to use the word "orthodox", as it is often taken to mean a blind belief in certain doctrines simply "because that is what we have always believed". Although "The Great Exchange" (the perfectly righteous Saviour taking His people's sin upon Himself, and clothing them in His righteousness) is something which has been believed and taught by many Christians over the centuries, that is not the reason I believe it. Rather, I believe the bible teaches it. 2 Corinthians 5.21:

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

And Paul writes in Philippians 3.9 of being ....

...found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

If anyone should object that it says the righteousness comes "by faith" (thinking of your words "a result of our fulfilling the conditions of salvation i.e., repentance and faith), there are other verses which speak of our justification being "by faith" (Romans 3.28; Romans 5.1; Galatians 2.16 and Galatians 3.24)

Philip Eveson wrote a balanced (at least in my view) article about N. T. Wright in the June 2004 edition of Evangelical Times, which can be seen online here:

http://www.evangelical-times.org/Website_Pages/ArticleDetail.php?articleID=1654

I'll leave it there - I don't want to go too far off topic for this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

That is in keeping with the Romans 3 "Justified by faith apart from the works of the Law". And certainly we see this as the subjective, individual and past - justification "past" as Paul says in Romans 5 "having been justified by faith we HAVE peace with God".

But in Dan 7 and in Romans 2 and in James 2 we see ANOTHER aspect of justification that is corporate, objective and judicial. "Judgment passed in FAVOR of the saints" with the rule "those who are DOERS of the Law WILL BE justified" Romans 2.

One past tense - (at the moment of salvation) and one "in the future" "On the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge the secrets of mankind through the man Christ Jesus" Romans 2. It is that Dan 7, Romans 2, James 2 concept of justification future that brings into light all the OSAS-debunking texts that show not only that perseverance is required but even shows those who are IN Christ being "Severed from Christ" Gal 5.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

David Lamb: I'll leave it there - I don't want to go too far off topic for this thread.

HP: Thanks for your explanation David. Possibly in the near future we will have opportunity to discuss together these issues. Have a great day in the Lord!

 

[BobRyan]

You have come to the right place!!

1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.



Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it


Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,



Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND [b]IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. [/b]
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.



1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

These texts all point to HOLDING on to the salvation that you HAVE -- and warn against the real problem of failing to do so.

But if one fails to HOLD what they have - then the circular argument "they never had anything to hold on to" is dead.

Rom 11:22

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able tograft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 [b]IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY[/b]
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.

 

[BobRyan]

the amazing thing is that Christians would argue that these warning texts don't really mean what they say and nobody should notice as they downsize scripture in favor of OSAS.

My question is this - how can you so blatantly edit and downsize scripture like that in favor of man-made-tradition and then claim that no one should point out such a rework of scripture?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So much interest in OSAS and the fact that it lacks Bible evidence showing up on this thread lately!

What is going on? A new "awakening"??

 

[Ed Edwards]

I thought the subject of the Topic was to
help an individual compile:

Loss of salvation arguements compiled


I don't think they were interested in compiling
OSAS arguments.

I know I have more arguments favoring OSAS
than 'loss of salvation'.

I've been on Bulletin Boards Since June 1984
arguing OSAS. I know for sure if someone
starts a topic: "things you should do to stay
saved" -- said topic will die in a fortnight on
page 2 to 4.

Any ol' OSAS versus 'loss of salvation thru _____ '
discussion will go into the third-to-fifth topic on the
same subject (unless stopped by the PTB
/Powers that be/ for tacky postin').

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

AAA,
Just look at this, one of 'the best' from no one less than our dear Bob Ryan!:
"Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence..."

Taking Bob's 'logic', the faithfulness of Christ can be destroyed by human neglect! He may have it - I won't!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

So much interest in OSAS and the fact that it lacks Bible evidence showing up on this thread lately!

What is going on? A new "awakening"??

GE:
Not expected; have you seen a Laodicean Christian who could? No self-satisfied person can 'awake'!

BobRyan, this issue between OSAS and free will is not from yesterday; men of intelligence and men of both intelligence and integrity have been engaged in it for centuries. The latter group to the annoyance of popery, the first to its glee. You side with the antichrist if you like - 'the choice is yours'. Just like in the days of Joshuah who told the unfaithful Israelites to go choose between the false gods, because the one true God isn't there for man's picking and choosing.

 

[BobRyan]

AAA,
Just look at this, one of 'the best' from no one less than our dear Bob Ryan!:
"Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence..."

Taking Bob's 'logic', the faithfulness of Christ can be destroyed by human neglect! He may have it - I won't!

It is always so flattering every time GE makes ME the author of scripture -- and by simply QUOTING the text -- blames ME for it's very existence!!

I find it difficult to get others beside GE to come out so directly in favor of doctrinal error where they admit that the very EXISTENCE of the text is in opposition to their false doctrine.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I thought the subject of the Topic was to
help an individual compile:

Loss of salvation arguements compiled


I don't think they were interested in compiling
OSAS arguments.

...
Any ol' OSAS versus 'loss of salvation thru _____ '
discussion will go into the third-to-fifth topic on the
same subject (unless stopped by the PTB
/Powers that be/ for tacky postin').

The point is I have seen more posts (on all of these threads and from both Baptists and non-Baptist) in favor of the Biblically correct doctrine on free over OSAS that I am just surprised to see that this point of truth is so well accepted and understood among the members of this board. Your response above also mentions the many threads on this topic.

I take encouragement from that fact -

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I find it interesting that Ezek 18 and Matt 18 make the same point about one declared by God to be righteous and declared to be forgiven receives the blessing "he shall live" in Ezek 18.

But then in both chapters the case of one who FALLS away from that steadfast position in Salvation.

John 15 deals with those severed from Christ THOUGH they were formerly abiding in Christ -- and when severed they are burned in the fire - they die.

In Romans 11 we see again the description of those who are severed from Christ.

in Gal 5:4 again we see the condition described as "fallen from Christ" and as "severed from Christ".

Some translations describe it as the benefits-effects-blessing of Christ in the Gospel becoming "useless" and "of no use" in that severed condition.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:

"John 15 deals with those severed from Christ THOUGH they were formerly abiding in Christ -- and when severed they are burned in the fire - they die."

GE:

The creature I admire most is a guide dog for the blind; he never gets bored or tired, realising full well the human will never learn to see though he may guide him over the same route every day of his life.