Loving the Return Of Christ

[Martin Marprelate]

What was it that was shared by 1st Century believers in Israel, Corinth, Phillipi and Thessalonika? Probably quite a few few things, but one of them was that they were eagerly awaiting, longing for and loving the Return of Christ.

http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/the-forgotten-doctrine-loving-the-return-of-christ-1/

Steve

 

[OldRegular]

A Crown of Righteousness to All Who Love His Appearing

What was it that was shared by 1st Century believers in Israel, Corinth, Phillipi and Thessalonika? Probably quite a few few things, but one of them was that they were eagerly awaiting, longing for and loving the Return of Christ.

http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/the-forgotten-doctrine-loving-the-return-of-christ-1/

Steve

I believe that the many passages of Scripture in the New Testament teaching the visible return of Jesus Christ, some implying a "soon return", was to create an attitude of "earnest expectancy" regarding His return! The Apostle Paul says it well when he writes to Timothy: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. [2 Timothy 4:8]

This is not the same as the belief in the "any moment return" of Dispensationalism but will be preceded by certain signs.

 

[saturneptune]

Without getting into the different theories about His return, I eagerly seek it, however He does it. In my short 60 years on this earth, things seem to get more out of control everyday. This upcoming election and the choices we have is a good example of how pure evil permeates every aspect of our lives. At one time, back when I was much younger, I read a lot of Hal Lindsey, and thought I would see the return of the Lord in my lifetime. Since then, although I think the Lord could come back anytime, I am not so sure about Lindsays sequence of events. Other ideas sound as credible to me, and it is one of those things I am not sure about. I just know the Lord is coming, and coming for me. I wish I would be one of the those who in Thes. "are caught up in the air and still alive" but nothing makes me any more special than all those who have died and are with the Lord, and that is probably what will happen to me.

 

[Grasshopper]

I believe that the many passages of Scripture in the New Testament teaching the visible return of Jesus Christ, some implying a "soon return", was to create an attitude of "earnest expectancy" regarding His return! .

So it wasn't really soon at all, just a ploy to keep them on their

 

[OldRegular]

So it wasn't really soon at all, just a ploy to keep them on their

You can call it ploy if it makes you feel good.

To me it shows the love of God for His people in reminding them, that in the final analysis and regardless of what trials this life presents, His Church will emerge victorious.

 

[HankD]

So it wasn't really soon at all, just a ploy to keep them on their

On their what?

These predictions of His visible return are not ploys.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

HankD​

 

[Grasshopper]

On their what?

These predictions of His visible return are not ploys.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

HankD​

........toes.

As you will note HankD I was not speaking of those verses but the concept of "soon".

As for your verses:

Adam Clarke

Rev 1:Verse 7. Behold, he cometh with clouds*
This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion; perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.

And all kindreds of the earth*
πασαιαιφυλαιτηςγης All the tribes of the land. By this the Jewish people are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state.

Even so, Amen.*
ναιαμην Yea, Amen. It is true, so be it. Our Lord will come and execute judgment on the Jews and Gentiles. This the Jews and Romans particularly felt.

John Lightfoot

Matt 24:30

[And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man.] Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, whom they would not before acknowledge: as proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall now him, whether they will or no, Isaiah 26:11. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messias, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world.

 

[HankD]

...

As for your verses:

Adam Clarke

Rev 1:Verse 7. Behold, he cometh with clouds*
This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion; perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.

And all kindreds of the earth*
πασαιαιφυλαιτηςγης All the tribes of the land. By this the Jewish people are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state.

According to Revelation 3:10 the scope of the events of the Book of Revelation is the entire world.

The time of "temptation" is coming upon ALL the world.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

"all the world" oikoumene oles.

And then there is Revelation 7.
Since (according to full preterism) all the events of the Book of Revelation occurs in AD70 then that would mean that in addition to the whole inhabited world being involved, an inumerable number of people from all nations, kindred, people and tongues from the whole world were killed.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

John Lightfoot

Matt 24:30

[And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man.] Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, whom they would not before acknowledge: as proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall now him, whether they will or no, Isaiah 26:11. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messias, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world.

Preterist problem: When He does actually come, all nations are involved and Christ Himself will fight against them to defend redeemed Israel out of the tribulation.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.​

...

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

As you will note HankD I was not speaking of those verses but the concept of "soon".

OK Grasshopper, since you look beyond the plain sense of the text as read which I provided then you shouldn't mind if we futurists look at the word "soon" as being in the nuanced sense of "soon" as defined by the heavenly author of the Bible.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.​

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

HankD​

 

[freeatlast]

What was it that was shared by 1st Century believers in Israel, Corinth, Phillipi and Thessalonika? Probably quite a few few things, but one of them was that they were eagerly awaiting, longing for and loving the Return of Christ.

http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/the-forgotten-doctrine-loving-the-return-of-christ-1/

Steve

Their persecution.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

........toes.

As you will note HankD I was not speaking of those verses but the concept of "soon".

As for your verses:

Adam Clarke

Rev 1:Verse 7. Behold, he cometh with clouds*
This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion; perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.

Does this really fit in with the verses I quoted in my link? Do you really think the 'Blessed hope' of the 1st Century Christians was nothing else but to see tens of thousands of Jews being killed? How would that fulfil the hopes of the Philippians expressed in Phil 3:20-21?

Steve

 

[preacher4truth]

Does this really fit in with the verses I quoted in my link? Do you really think the 'Blessed hope' of the 1st Century Christians was nothing else but to see tens of thousands of Jews being killed? How would that fulfil the hopes of the Philippians expressed in Phil 3:20-21?

Steve

Thanks for your link. I thoroughly enjoyed it. :thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

It would be interesting to see how full-preterists on this forum explain Revelation 21, 22!

I agree Steve, the Blessed Hope of the Saints was and should be the visible return of Jesus Christ as promised in Scripture!

 

[Grasshopper]

According to Revelation 3:10 the scope of the events of the Book of Revelation is the entire world.

The time of "temptation" is coming upon ALL the world.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

"all the world" oikoumene oles.

Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world(οἰκουμένη)should be taxed.

Reckon Caesar got all those Mayans counted?

And then there is Revelation 7.Since (according to full preterism) all the events of the Book of Revelation occurs in AD70 then that would mean that in addition to the whole inhabited world being involved, an inumerable number of people from all nations, kindred, people and tongues from the whole world were killed.

You failed to prove Revelation speaks of the entire world.

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

Same tribulation that Matthew speaks of?​

(On Matthew 24:21)
"For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred."
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/s/spurgeon_c-h.html

One does not have to be a FP to hold this view. Spurgeon was no FP.

Preterist problem: When He does actually come, all nations are involved and Christ Himself will fight against them to defend redeemed Israel out of the tribulation.

You fail to recognize that many pre-Darby theologians acknowledged AD70 as a coming yet still held to a future one as well. Go back to Rev. 3:


Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Was this an idle threat? If He came on them would that have been the second coming?

OK Grasshopper, since you look beyond the plain sense of the text as read which I provided

Lightfoot and Clarke gave the plain meaning.....if read in context. But I am always amused at futurists who claim to look at the plain meaning of scripture then when they come to the plain time statements they...well...do as you do in the next paragraph.

then you shouldn't mind if we futurists look at the word "soon" as being in the nuanced sense of "soon" as defined by the heavenly author of the Bible.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.​

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

You are taking an OT verse that speaks of how God sees time and then using that as a lens in which to view all the prophetic time texts in the NT. This hermenutic renders all time texts as useless for us. Do you really think God chose to speak to man in terms he would not understand? Not to mention futurists who claim this are then inconsistent in its application:

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

If it is future then even when you see these signs, it means nothing because near and at hand could be 1000 years. Never heard Hal Lindsey claim that.​

 

[Grasshopper]

It would be interesting to see how full-preterists on this forum explain Revelation 21, 22!

Well, if they couldn't they would just throw out this verse:

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1778721#post1778721

I agree Steve, the Blessed Hope of the Saints was and should be the visible return of Jesus Christ as promised in Scripture!

Then you woul agree that only a small fraction of believers who have ever lived will ever experience the Blessed Hope.

 

[OldRegular]

Never heard Hal Lindsey claim that.

Hal Lindsey was as mistaken concerning the return of Jesus Christ as the full-preterist.

The dispensationalist claim of a "parenthesis Church" is as false as the claim by full-preterists that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD fulfilled all prophecies of the visible return of Jesus Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

Well, if they couldn't they would just throw out this verse:

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1778721#post1778721

I see that you still have a problem, Grasshopper, with "rightly dividing" but hang in there. Perhaps the Lord Jesus Christ will soon return in power and great glory!

Then you woul [sp] agree that only a small fraction of believers who have ever lived will ever experience the Blessed Hope.

Not at all!

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 21:1-8
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Grasshopper]

I see that you still have a problem, Grasshopper, with "rightly dividing" but hang in there. Perhaps the Lord Jesus Christ will soon return in power and great glory!

And I see you still can't answer the quite simple question.

Not at all!

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Where are all those people now?

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Already dealt with that. So who pierced Jesus anyway?

Revelation 21:1-8
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Which of course brings us back to the question you could/would not answer. Is. 65-66.

2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Verses 9-10 tell us what the New Jerusalem is.

3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

That sounds familiar. See 2 Cor. 6:16 & Eph. 2:19-22.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree Steve, the Blessed Hope of the Saints was and should be the visible return of Jesus Christ as promised in Scripture!

Then you would agree that only a small fraction of believers who have ever lived will ever experience the Blessed Hope.

Why would you think that, and why would he agree? 'Every eye will see Him, even they that pierced Him,' and if they will see Him, how much more those who have eagerly waited for Him. 'For this we say to you by the word of the Lord (John 5:28, I suppose)that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout and the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first' (1 Thes 4:15-16).

As I see it, as the Lord Jesus descends to the earth, the dead will rise; those who are His will rise to meet Him (1Thes 4:17) and those who are not His will observe Him coming down. Exactly how everybody on the earth will see Him at the same time I have no idea, but that is the teaching of the Scripture (Matt 24:27) and I believe I can leave the details to God Almighty.

Steve

 

[DaChaser1]

........toes.

As you will note HankD I was not speaking of those verses but the concept of "soon".

As for your verses:

Adam Clarke

Rev 1:Verse 7. Behold, he cometh with clouds*
This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion; perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.

And all kindreds of the earth*
πασαιαιφυλαιτηςγης All the tribes of the land. By this the Jewish people are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state.

Even so, Amen.*
ναιαμην Yea, Amen. It is true, so be it. Our Lord will come and execute judgment on the Jews and Gentiles. This the Jews and Romans particularly felt.

John Lightfoot

Matt 24:30

[And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man.] Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, whom they would not before acknowledge: as proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall now him, whether they will or no, Isaiah 26:11. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messias, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world.

So the great and blessed hope for the Church, second coming of christ and us being glorified and this earth and all Creation being restored was JUST for first century church?

So we have NO hope now, we missed that?

 

[Grasshopper]

Why would you think that, and why would he agree? 'Every eye will see Him, even they that pierced Him,' and if they will see Him, how much more those who have eagerly waited for Him. 'For this we say to you by the word of the Lord (John 5:28, I suppose)that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout and the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first' (1 Thes 4:15-16).

As I see it, as the Lord Jesus descends to the earth, the dead will rise; those who are His will rise to meet Him (1Thes 4:17) and those who are not His will observe Him coming down. Exactly how everybody on the earth will see Him at the same time I have no idea, but that is the teaching of the Scripture (Matt 24:27) and I believe I can leave the details to God Almighty.

Steve

So those who die remain in their grave and are not presently in the presence of God?