Lutheran Christening

Yes, because baptism is one of the promised means of grace and can be used by the Holy Spirit to create faith and thus save.

Yes the child would be registered as a baptized member of that congregation, no but it helps.

 

My roommate is out right now, but in the past he described the congregation (at his family's church in Saskatchewan) in unison saying something like "we welcome you into the body of Christ" (not sure if those were the exact words, the baby doesn't understand them anyway ), which does seem to suggest that it is done to welcome the person being baptized into the congregation in addition to the parents pledging to teach the child Christian values.

It seems to be the belief held by the majority of Lutherans that baptism saves, but not all Lutherans believe this (as far as I can tell, there are even some Lutheran denominations that do not believe this so it's not simply individual Lutherans rejecting a doctrine of their church).

 

I don't want to start anything, but how does H2O save you?

 

Well, it doesn't!...but you would have a hard time baptizing one without it.

MEE

 

From Luther's Small Catechism.

 

You gotta be kiddin' !! You "don't wanna start anythin'" and make that statement in a room full of Catholics!!!

YEEEEEEEEHA!!!!

Well, you done started somethin, so I guess we will do the ole "baptism saves/does not" two step agin, won't we?

First of all, to answer the question you made in the literal vernacular, H2O has NO SAVING POWER AT ALL. Period!!!

The Hindu who goes down to the filthy Ganges River and "baptizes" himself goes in a dry and damned sinner and comes out a wet and damned sinner.

H2O has no effect.

So what is the difference between that Hindu and the Christian parents who baptize their children, or the convert who is baptized?

Faith.

"For without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please Him."

Yupper. Faith is what makes the Sacraments work. All of them. But even more specifically, faith in Jesus the Christ, the Son of God.

Suppose you were to preach a one sentence sermon:

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Suppose that was all the message that you gave to a group of people standing around. Now the questions begin:

"Who was this Jesus"

Answer "He claimed to be the Son of God. He proved it by the miracles He did, and by rising from the dead three days after wicked men crucified Him."

And then you go on to show the verse which prove His Messiahship. You show his death, burial and resurrection from the Passion Narratives in Scripture. You explain to these men that just as one who believed in the God of the Jews in the OT was circumcized into the kingdom of God, in this the New Covenant, we must be similarly baptized into the kingdom of God, thus entering His covenant.

And after all this, WHO are the people who will step forward and submit to baptism? Why, it is the ones who believe, who have faith that what you have told them is true.

Their act of submission to baptism is an act of faith and obedience to God. And it is that faith, that obedience, which makes the Sacrament effacacious.

Otherwise, its just another Hindu baptism. i.e., unbelievers gettin' wet.

Now, in anticipation of the question which I know will surface (might as well answer it now), the faith of the parents, the priest, or even the congregation, is sufficient for the infant who cannot exercise his own faith.

We see this in Scripture where the father, as covenantal head, was circumcized on behalf of his wife and any daughters in the family, and they were entered into the covenant along with him by virtue of his headship.

This is called the principle of covenantal hierarchy.

We see it in Hebrews also:

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

The action of Abraham in paying tithes to Melchizedek, was credited to Levi, who was many, many years from being born into this world.

It also works in a negative way:

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death passed upon all men. Why? Because the covenantal head of all humanity sinned and by doing so, involved all mankind yet unborn, in his sin.

When you make a covenant, you follow the rules of covenantalism. Hierarchy is one of those rules. The greater can act in behalf of the lesser. That is why the Jews lost the kingdom. The priests, who were the covenantal heads of the nation, crucified their Messiah, and the guilt of that act was imputed upon the whole nation, resulting in its destruction in AD 70.

Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,


Brother Ed

 

As you pointed out, Baptism is done in obedience after the sinner has believed on Jesus Christ for salvation. Baptism is not an necessity for salvation. Jesus is all you need.

 

So we don't need the Bible?

 

So we don't need the Bible? </font>[/QUOTE]Of course we do, how else is the Gospel revealed. How else do you learn who Jesus is? How do you know what Heaven and Hell is? ETC., ETC.

 

I also pointed out that infants, who cannot believe, are to be baptized. I pointed out that the faith of their parents is sufficient for them to enter them into the kingdom of God and make covenant with them.

I was surprized you either overlooked or refused to answer this.

No, faith "alone" is NOT sufficient to believe and if one believes and then is not baptized, by dint of his WILLING REFUSAL, then he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. What you are stipulating I REJECT COMPLETELY, i.e., the idea that "faith alone" can save one and baptism is a sign of something which is already complete, i.e., belief unto a completed salvation experience.

No such thing.

Brother ed

 

So we don't need the Bible? </font>[/QUOTE]Of course we do, how else is the Gospel revealed. How else do you learn who Jesus is? How do you know what Heaven and Hell is? ETC., ETC. </font>[/QUOTE]Well that would cut in to the "all we need" phrase wouldn't it since the Bible is not specifically Jesus. So our list so far that we will agree on is Jesus and the Bible. Now I am trying to remember if anyone in the Bible found a Bible laying around (or some scriptures) picked it up and without any other human interatction got saved? Hmmmm. Lydia? Nope, Corenlius, Nope? The Jailor? Nuther dead end. Maybe the Eunuch in Acts 8. Now he is interesting he was reading Isaiha when Phillip came upon him with a little help from God. Odd, he said he couldn't understand the scriptures unless someone explained them to him. So it would seem that we could expand our list a bit. Any suggestions? Oh and do you actually have to believe in hell? And how about hope and love? Are they just window dressing or a part of the package?

 

Acts 2 Read This Chapter
2:38
"Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
2:41
So those who accepted his message were baptized, and that day about 3,000 people were added to them.


Matthew 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

The Catholic church says;

Go, therefore, and baptize in the name of the father and of the Son and the Holy spirit

 

Here's How the Catholic church pervert the Word of God just to support their doctrine on infant baptism.

The Word of God says:

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Catholic Church says:

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, "Be baptized each of you in the name of Jesus the Messiah and repent for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirirt"

The Bible says:

Matthew 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

The Catholic church says;

Go, therefore, and baptize in the name of the father and of the Son and the Holy spirit among all nations and make them discples.

The Bible says:

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned

The Catholic church says:

Mark 16:16
Whoever is baptized and believed will be saved, but whoever is not baptized will be condemned

 

Um Southeast, you wouldn't want to be accused of bearing false witness now would you. Your saying that in Catholicism repentence isn't neccessary for salvation? Now perhaps you don't know as much about Catholicism as you think you do and should stop now before you violate one of those commandments.

Here is the official source, the Catechism if you don't believe me:

537. "Through BAPTISM the Christian is sacramentally assimilated to Jesus, who in his own BAPTISM anticipates his death and resurrection. The Christian must enter into this mystery of humble self-abasement and REPENTANCE, go down into the water with Jesus in order to rise with him, be reborn of water and the Spirit so as to become the Father's beloved son in the Son and 'walk in newness of life':[Rom 6:4 .] Let us be buried with Christ by BAPTISM to rise with him; let us go down with him to be raised with him; and let us rise with him to be glorified with him.[St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 40, 9: PG 36, 369.]
Everything that happened to Christ lets us know that, after the bath of water, the Holy Spirit swoops down upon us from high heaven and that, adopted by the Father's voice, we become sons of God.[St. Hilary of Poitiers, In Matth. 2, 5: PL 9, 927.]"

Your posts are starting to sound kind of like ridicule you know.

[ May 07, 2003, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

Sorry the previos post is not complete:
I have press mistakenly the add post before finish.
The second one is my final and complete post.

 

By the way, SEB, I thought this thread was about Lutherans. Why are you bringing Catholics in to the picture? Is it because you have a special dislike for them?

 

I don't believe Lutherans refer to infant baptism as christening. They refer to it as baptism. The baby is being baptized and if it cries, that is the devil being driven from it.

In my Sunday school class, I was taught that if a baby dies and was not baptized that it would go to hell.

 

Hmmmm... sounds like you unfortunately had a bad pastor or bad teacher depending on who taught your class. We (Lutherans) in general do not believe that a child is going to go to hell because he or she was not baptized before death. That said we believe there is greater assurance of the salvation of a child if he or she is baptized prior to passing away.

 

Couple questions for Southeastbaptist:

Does a person have to have the Holy Spirit to get to heaven?
Can a baby recieve the Holy Spirit?
What does "Baptism now saves you" mean?