Luther's Warning of Decision Theology

[Chemnitz]

What does it matter how I have lived my life,or how anyone else has for that matter? There is only one thing proved if I answered that I was not perfect or that I have not kept God’s commands, i.e., that I am a sinner and an unrepentant one if in fact I had not repented and turned from my sin. If there is not a man or women alive that is righteous before the Lord, would that prove an impossibility to live righteous? If there was a mountain out there that no one had ever climbed, would that be proof that no one could? We need to start to consider the remarks we make.

Scriptue admonishes, " 2Co 10:12 ¶ For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

If I said that my heart was indeed perfect before the Lord, in that all my sins are under the blood and I currently possess a clear conscience before God and man and have an inner witness that I please God, what would be your reaction to that? Would you rejoice with me that I have a right heart before God and a sure hope of eternal life? Let me guess. I bet you would start name calling and calling me a liar, and tell me that I am self-righteous among other things. If I were in a condition such as I have spoken of, I would sure seek other places and other times to start cating my pearls about.

Hey don't blame me if God gave you commands that you could not obey.
You admit that you are a sinner, that is a good starting point. Now no sinner could ever hope to keep the commands that God has given us. The historical record in the Bible makes it abundantly clear that given the choice men will choose their own pleasures before God, even when they have the best of intentions.

De 30:11 ¶ For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

This passage has absolutely nothing to do with actually keeping the commandments. It has everything to do with the fact God has not hidden his commands from us. Please note the fact that God says that it is not hidden nor far and that all the questions are asking who will go get it.

Romans 6:16-23 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. 20 When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here it is abundantly clear that we are either slaves of sin or slaves of righteousness. Now a slave has no will of their own. They are bound completely to serve their master. They have no choice even though they may desire to do otherwise.

Also you should note that the action of becoming a slave of righteous is in the passive voice, this means that the action is being done to us rather than we doing it ourselves. This is intensified by the statement that this is a gift. If becoming a slave of God is a gift then it is not contingent on anything you do. If becoming a slave is dependent on your decision, a human work, then it is no longer a gift rather it is a wage given in exchange for your work.

Scripture calls men rebels, willing sinners, not victims of their circumstances. Scripture states we are blameworthy, and as such the just recipients of our wicked deeds. No man is the victim of the sins of our fathers or anyone else, nor will God punish us for their sins or they for our sins. Everyman is accountable to God for their own sins. ALL WE like sheep have GONE, not were ‘born astray,’ but have ‘GONE’ astray.

You ought to try reading Psalms. "in iniquity did my mother concieve me." Ps 51 From our very birth we are born sinful. We are all born seperated from God in sin because of one man. Romans 5:19a "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners,..."

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Ok - well that is one view -- but what about the opposing view?

Hey don't blame me if God gave you commands that you could not obey.
You admit that you are a sinner, that is a good starting point. Now no sinner could ever hope to keep the commands that God has given us.

[/quote]




Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?


Matt 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

But then there is always the other side of this --

Hey don't blame me if God gave you commands that you could not obey.
You admit that you are a sinner, that is a good starting point. Now no sinner could ever hope to keep the commands that God has given us.

The historical record in the Bible makes it abundantly clear that given the choice men will choose their own pleasures before God, even when they have the best of intentions.

I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Of course there is always the view that says we should not be telling people about keeping His Commandments

Quote:
Hey don't blame me if God gave you commands that you could not obey.
You admit that you are a sinner, that is a good starting point. Now no sinner could ever hope to keep the commands that God has given us.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Rom 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

The historical record in the Bible makes it abundantly clear that given the choice men will choose their own pleasures before God, even when they have the best of intentions.

Ok then - one more time for "God's argument

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

The problem with many arguments made is the failure to recognize the true point at which credit is given for salvation and when it is not given. Regardless of mans ability to make a decision it has no value where the credit for the provision of salvation is concerned.

Man has the ability to choose to come to God the same as he had to walk away from God in the Garden. Without that decision there can be no response in love. The credit foe salvation begins and ends with the one who has the authority and power to give it. Credit for salvation does not begin nor end with mans ability to choose God. Where credit for salvation is concerned mans choosing is irrelevant. The only relevent consideration again is who has the power to give it and the authority to give it. That is where the credit both begins and ends.

Those who are of the reformed pursuasion insist that we understand John 1:12 in light of v. 13. But they fail to do the opposite as well which is both right and appropriate.

The credit for salvation both begins and ends with the one who has the power and authority to give. Mans response does not come into play where credit for salvation is concerned.

 

[BobRyan]

True - the issue is not "credit for salvation" the issue is the conditions for receiving it and persevering IN it.

As the texts show we can not cling to rebellion and grasp salvation. Romans 6 flatly denies that "rebellion forever" model. As 1John 2 points out we are to walk in newness of life - to simply live on in rebellion is to be "self deceived" according to Christ in Matt 7.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Chemnitz: You admit that you are a sinner, that is a good starting point.

HP: It is amazing to me the notions one reads into the others posts that simply are not there. This appears to be no exception. I cannot recall making any such claim to you or the list. I did not state that I was, or was not, a sinner that I can recall. Help me out Chemnitz. Where did I state that I am a sinner?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

2Timothy: The problem with many arguments made is the failure to recognize the true point at which credit is given for salvation and when it is not given. Regardless of mans ability to make a decision it has no value where the credit for the provision of salvation is concerned.

HP: Excellent point.

 

[Chemnitz]

So, you do not admit that you are a sinner? Why do you refuse to admit this fact? Is it because then you would have to concede the point that God has given us commands that we cannot keep?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Chemnitz: So, you do not admit that you are a sinner? Why do you refuse to admit this fact? Is it because then you would have to concede the point that God has given us commands that we cannot keep?

HP: Go back and read the post I sent you. I explained full well why I felt no inclination to share any personal facts with you at this time in this setting with your mindset.

Why would anyone ever have to concede a point due to the fact that another has presented an opposing idea that clearly is at direct antipodes with the plain teachings of Scripture? That makes no sense to me.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I have read you both, Chemnitz and Heavenly Pilgrim, and cannot scarsely get a knife's edge between what you each are saying.

Methinks you are of one mind, asking itself, the same questions, coming up with the different POSSIBILITIES of answer, now on the hand, then on the other.

 

[D28guy]

JFox,

"Martin Luther warned about the dangers of decision theology."

Martin Luther is not God.

I praise God for the glorious freedom and truth that exploded from the great reformation 500 years ago. But Martin Luther, Calvin, and the others were not perfect. Far from it.

The scriptures of God make clear that through faith alone in Christ alone a person can...at a moment in time...be born again of the Spirit of God and completly secure regarding their heavenly home from that moment on.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Chemnitz]

HP: Go back and read the post I sent you. I explained full well why I felt no inclination to share any personal facts with you at this time in this setting with your mindset.

Why would anyone ever have to concede a point due to the fact that another has presented an opposing idea that clearly is at direct antipodes with the plain teachings of Scripture? That makes no sense to me.

Hey there's that statement Ed was talking about. The problem is that I am not going against as you say the plain teachings of the Scripture. As it says in psalms none are righteous and later in Romans all have fallen short, while we are at it let us toss in Isaiah all our righteous works are like filthy rags. It is simply impossible for us to do anything that merits salvation including making a decision.

To add to that scripture also tells us that we are either slaves to Christ or slaves to sin. A slave has no freedom of will. He/she is bound to their master's will. This means that anyone bound by sin is bound to reject God's will, thereby making it impossible for any of us to follow his commands.

Have I made a personal attack yet on you in this debate, HP? If I had not before hand inspite of a perceived condescension in your posts, why would I do so now? I have simply asked if you admit to what every Christian in the past has admited that you haved sinned.

 

[BobRyan]

When I see "IF" in each of these texts I know that it "has meaning".

Some seem to doubt that it has any significance at all --

Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Ok - well that is one view -- but what about the opposing view?

Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?


Matt 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

But then there is always the other side of this --





I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Of course there is always the view that says we should not be telling people about keeping His Commandments



1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Rom 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.





Ok then - one more time for "God's argument

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”[/quote]

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:

Rom 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

GE:

Left there, it's the dead Law and the Letter that kills. For what is Paul's presuposition?:
Do we then nullify the Law of Ten Commandments through the Faith of Christ? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law of God, in that Christ has become the Law for us who believe in Him.

Am I right or do you not agree?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: in that Christ has become the Law for us who believe in Him.

HP: Do you have a reference in mind that states this?