trailblazer
New Member
I was startled to see in 'Vincents Word Studies of the New Testament'IV (pg.16), his rendering of the word "election." He had this to say:
Any comments?
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M.R. Vincent re: Election
- Thread starter trailblazer
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Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Trailblazer,
Quite obviously Dr. Marvin Vincent believed that some of Calvin's theology missed the mark to a radical extent and he chose his words carefully to express his feelings toward such doctrinal errors. And it should be observed that neither Jesus nor Paul minced words when dealing with false doctrines.
Vincent’s four volume Word Studies in the New Testament is one of the modules that can be downloaded for free for use in the free downloadable E-Sword Bible study program at http://www.e-sword.net/downloads.html
And, Trailblazer, welcome to the Baptist Board!
Quite obviously Dr. Marvin Vincent believed that some of Calvin's theology missed the mark to a radical extent and he chose his words carefully to express his feelings toward such doctrinal errors. And it should be observed that neither Jesus nor Paul minced words when dealing with false doctrines.
Vincent’s four volume Word Studies in the New Testament is one of the modules that can be downloaded for free for use in the free downloadable E-Sword Bible study program at http://www.e-sword.net/downloads.html
And, Trailblazer, welcome to the Baptist Board!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Scripture and theologians frequently use the term ‘election’ to indicate the sovereign choice of God. Scripture speaks of election in three different contexts, only one of which is election unto salvation.
1. The first context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is the choice of Israel as a people through which the promised redeemer would come.
Deuteronomy 7:6,7, KJV
6. For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
7. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:
Such election is not associated with personal salvation as shown in the following passage.
Romans 9:6,7, KJV
6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
2. The second context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is vocational.
God called Aaron and his descendants out of the tribe of Levi to be priests but not all were called to salvation. Jesus Christ called twelve men to be apostles but only eleven of them were chosen to salvation.
3. The third context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is election unto salvation: God the Father Chooses a People For His Own.
Scripture teaches that God the Father chooses or elects those who, in Jesus Christ, will be saved. That choice or election is the role of God the Father in the Covenant of Grace. Those who are chosen in Jesus Christ will become the Saints, the ‘true believers’.
The Apostle Paul, writing to the Saints at Ephesus, summarizes this doctrine as follows:
Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
3. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
What does Scripture mean when it teaches that God has chosen us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world?
James P. Boyce, cofounder and first president of the Southern Baptist Seminary, defines election to salvation as follows [Abstract of Systematic Theology , page 347]:
“God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.
Southern Baptist, John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 309] defines election to salvation simply as:
“All who will finally be saved, were chosen to salvation by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, and given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace.”
Dagg’s definition of election is greatly expanded upon in the text and presupposes an understanding of the Covenant of Grace. He does, however, show what Scripture means by the statement chose us in Him [that is, Jesus Christ]. The elect are given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace, that is they are saved only through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ as atonement for their sins.
John I. Packer, an Anglican theologian, writes about the doctrine of election as follows [Concise Theology , page 149; see also the New Geneva Bible, page 1784]
“The biblical doctrine of election is that before Creation God selected out of the human race, foreseen as fallen, those whom He would redeem, bring to faith, justify, and glorify in and through Jesus Christ. This divine choice is an expression of free and sovereign grace, for it is unconstrained and unconditional, not merited by anything in those who are its subjects. God owes sinners no mercy of any kind, only condemnation; so it is a wonder, and a matter for endless praise, that He should choose to save any of us; and doubly so when His choice involved the giving of His own Son to suffer as sin bearer for the elect.”
W. T. Conner, a professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological seminary early in the 20th century writes of election as follows [Christian Doctrine, page 155]:
“It [Election] means that God has decreed to bring certain ones, upon whom His heart has been eternally set, who are the objects of His eternal love, to faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. When a man is saved he is not saved as a matter of chance or accident or fate; he is saved in pursuance of an eternal purpose of God. God saves man because He intends to. He saves a particular man, at a particular time, under a particular set of circumstances, because He intends to.”
1. The first context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is the choice of Israel as a people through which the promised redeemer would come.
Deuteronomy 7:6,7, KJV
6. For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
7. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:
Such election is not associated with personal salvation as shown in the following passage.
Romans 9:6,7, KJV
6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
2. The second context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is vocational.
God called Aaron and his descendants out of the tribe of Levi to be priests but not all were called to salvation. Jesus Christ called twelve men to be apostles but only eleven of them were chosen to salvation.
3. The third context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is election unto salvation: God the Father Chooses a People For His Own.
Scripture teaches that God the Father chooses or elects those who, in Jesus Christ, will be saved. That choice or election is the role of God the Father in the Covenant of Grace. Those who are chosen in Jesus Christ will become the Saints, the ‘true believers’.
The Apostle Paul, writing to the Saints at Ephesus, summarizes this doctrine as follows:
Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
3. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
What does Scripture mean when it teaches that God has chosen us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world?
James P. Boyce, cofounder and first president of the Southern Baptist Seminary, defines election to salvation as follows [Abstract of Systematic Theology , page 347]:
“God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.
Southern Baptist, John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 309] defines election to salvation simply as:
“All who will finally be saved, were chosen to salvation by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, and given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace.”
Dagg’s definition of election is greatly expanded upon in the text and presupposes an understanding of the Covenant of Grace. He does, however, show what Scripture means by the statement chose us in Him [that is, Jesus Christ]. The elect are given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace, that is they are saved only through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ as atonement for their sins.
John I. Packer, an Anglican theologian, writes about the doctrine of election as follows [Concise Theology , page 149; see also the New Geneva Bible, page 1784]
“The biblical doctrine of election is that before Creation God selected out of the human race, foreseen as fallen, those whom He would redeem, bring to faith, justify, and glorify in and through Jesus Christ. This divine choice is an expression of free and sovereign grace, for it is unconstrained and unconditional, not merited by anything in those who are its subjects. God owes sinners no mercy of any kind, only condemnation; so it is a wonder, and a matter for endless praise, that He should choose to save any of us; and doubly so when His choice involved the giving of His own Son to suffer as sin bearer for the elect.”
W. T. Conner, a professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological seminary early in the 20th century writes of election as follows [Christian Doctrine, page 155]:
“It [Election] means that God has decreed to bring certain ones, upon whom His heart has been eternally set, who are the objects of His eternal love, to faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. When a man is saved he is not saved as a matter of chance or accident or fate; he is saved in pursuance of an eternal purpose of God. God saves man because He intends to. He saves a particular man, at a particular time, under a particular set of circumstances, because He intends to.”
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
I find the grotesque arrogance of James Boyce to be worse than revolting. What ever happened to the Christian virtue known as “humility?”
Any comments?
</font>[/QUOTE]While not using the term "revolting doctrine" this is much the same as H.A. Ironside said in his commentary on Romans chapter 9. I always walk lightly here on this subject because of the great respect I have for some of the advocates of this doctrine here on this board, Dr. Bob included.That having been said, Vincent's position is very close to mine.
That's funny!
This is the quote from the original post of Vincent's remarks:
"...to choose, chosen or elect, are used of God's selection of men or agencies for special missions or attainments; but neither here nor elsewhere in the N.T. is there any warrant for the revolting doctrine that God has predestined a definite number of mankind to eternal life, and the rest to eternal destruction." (1Thess 1:4)
His understanding of the Doctrine of Election is hilariously poor at best, although what's not funny about this is the number of persons who also hold to his views.
How wonderful it is to fully understand the grace of God! Vincent really knows better now!
I find the grotesque arrogance of James Boyce to be worse than revolting. What ever happened to the Christian virtue known as “humility?”</font>[/QUOTE]How does stating a Bible doctrine succinctly and clearly and accurately equate with "grotesque arrogance"? That is one of the simplist and easiest for most [most] to understand statement on election I've seen!
To call this arrogant is, to use your analogy, "grotesque stupidity".
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
“God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.
I would roll over and die before I would make such a grotesquely arrogant statement about God! Who does Boyce think he is that he knows the eternal purpose of God?
And as for accusing a man who is defending the King of kings and the Lord of lords of "grotesque stupidity,” you shall answer to God for that sin!
And as for the doctrine that Boyce is stating, is it possible for a doctrine to be more contrary to the very word of God in the Holy Scriptures? If Boyce is right, and of course he is not, every attempt at evangelism is a vain and stupid exercise of futility because the outcome of all men is predetermined and no amount of evangelism is going to save anyone. Those who are not elect are already damned to hell, and those who are elect are going to be saved without the evangelism.
And according to Boyce and his doctrine from hell, every couple who conceives a child is guilty of a most horrible sin for they are conceiving a child whose future no amount of nurturing and good parenting can save from the fires of hell if that child is not one of Gods elect.
And according to Boyce and his doctrine of hopelessness and despair, EVERYONE ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD who is praying for the salvation of their parents, the salvation of their brother, the salvation of their sister, the salvation of the their children, and the salvation of any soul is wasting his or her time because the fate of their loved ones has already been determined by a hateful and vengeful God who does not answer prayer because He can not even if He should repent and desire to because their damnation to the fires of hell has already been predetermined by Him.
What doctrine could possibly be more blasphemous! What doctrine could possibly bring a greater reproach to the character of God?
I believe that God is sovereign and that He therefore has the authority to listen to those who plead with Him for the souls of their loved ones and the souls of anyone who is lost in sin, and that He, not James Boyce, has the authority to decide which prayers to answer and which to not answer.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I find the grotesque arrogance of James Boyce to be worse than revolting. What ever happened to the Christian virtue known as “humility?”
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
“God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.
I would roll over and die before I would make such a grotesquely arrogant statement about God! Who does Boyce think he is that he knows the eternal purpose of God?
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
I suspect he also read John 6:37; Romans 8:29, 30; and others.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
I am not attacking God; I am attacking the false allegations that Boyce and others have brought against God through their untiring arrogance. For two thousand years learned men have contemplated the paradox between the sovereignty of God and the free will of man, and the vast majority of them have been humble enough before God to admit that there is a paradox,. But there have been some individuals on both sides of the question who were unable to grasp both sides of the question and, arrogantly ignoring the writings of those were able to, they have proclaimed that they have God all figured out!
Those who believe in the sovereignty of God as expressed by Boyce disagree with my allegations against their doctrine, but they have no answers to the allegations, for there are none. Indeed there are thousands of commandments, exhortations, and admonitions in the Bible to change one’s behavior, and if even one of these commandments, exhortations, and admonitions can be taken literally, just that one commandment, exhortation, or admonition is undeniable proof that although God made the man as He did according to His sovereign design, that man has the ability given to him by God to yield to God and become a man of different character. And every call to repentance, every call to salvation, is in and of itself proof that man has the free will to answer that call and become one of God’s elect. How do we reconcile this with the omniscience of God? We certainly don’t do it by ignoring or distorting the thousands of scriptures that show us that God is not the two-year-old’s toy that Boyce makes Him out to be, but a truly infinite God!
Dr. Bob, thank you for your kind patience with me even though you apparently full-heartedly disagree with my theological position (even though it is supported by thousands of scriptures in the Bible and was the position of the large majority of the Church Fathers and is the position of the very large majority of Baptist pastors today, even if I may express it in stronger language than most of them would).
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Craigbythesea
Your problem is in believing that fallen man has free will.
Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Your problem is in believing that fallen man has free will.
Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Daniel David
New Member
craig, does God have free will? If he does, what happens when his free will colides with man's free will? Who wins?
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Are the fallen men in these verses doing God's will or their own will?
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Man often wins the skirmish, but God always win the battle.
Every time God commands, “Do not sin,” and the man yet sins, he is proving that he is able to thwart the will of God. Nonetheless, the man always suffers loss as the consequence of his disobedience.
Some find the idea of man thwarting the will of God inconceivable, but the Scriptures tell us that our sovereign God chose to give man the option of both obedience and disobedience. Had God chosen not to do this, of course man could only obey, but the Scriptures tell us very plainly that the man whom God created did not always choose to yield to God’s will, but very often chose to do his own thing—very much to his own destruction!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Are the fallen men in these verses doing God's will or their own will?
1. And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2. in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
That is why I pray for people to be saved.
How sad it would be if James Boyce is right and no amount of prayer for the salvation of our families and friends will do any good and the circle was damned to be broken from day one. What a most wretched belief!
And how sad it would be if every missionary who was martyred for preaching the Gospel died in vain preaching to those who were damned to hell from the foundation of the earth.
“Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.”
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is why I pray for people to be saved.
How sad it would be if James Boyce is right and no amount of prayer for the salvation of our families and friends will do any good and the circle was damned to be broken from day one. What a most wretched belief!
And how sad it would be if every missionary who was martyred for preaching the Gospel died in vain preaching to those who were damned to hell from the foundation of the earth.
“Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.”
Ephesians 1:3-6
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
All Boyce did was summarize what God communicated through the Apostle Paul.