Featured Major Contradiction in 1686 Westminster Confession

This post, like your others, are chalked full of false doctrine. The first point is that if you were a true Baptist, you would not be hung up on creeds and confessions. A Baptist's creed and confession is the Bible.

You have spent much time on this board degrading doctrines of sovereignty and grace of the Lord. You paint a picture of the Lord as a Creator limited by power, knowledge, sovereignty, grace.

There is no conflict in the document you site above, only in your mind. The first statement says man is totally depraved. The second "to deter all men from sin" does not conflict with the first. Because a man is detered from sin does not mean he is saved or has been quickened by the Holy Spirit.

People that nit pick the Bible for contidictions are not interested in a relationship with the Lord. They are interested in harming the Christian faith. In a similar fashion, your hatred for the sovereignty and grace of God, you search out contridictions to fit your unBiblical beliefs. Since you cannot find it in Scripture, you go to man made documents.

God, our Creator and Savior, is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, and nothing less, along with many qualities, many of which we do not fully understand.

You have caused much discord and dissention on this board in your short history, And yes, through my own mistakes, I had a minor setback, but intend to see it comes to an end.

 

To be fair the phrase "to deter all men from sin" says nothing about the salvation of the men, but I see where you are going with it.

A better question to ask would be: "If man is totally depraved and can only choose things within this fallen nature, why does the Wesminster Confession say that knowledge of the coming judgment day can deter men from sin?"

Also, when it says "to deter all men from sin" what is the definition of "all"? :laugh:

 

I believe DrAch has made an excellent point. If the natural man is utterly unable to prepare himself to salvation, then he could not respond to the gospel, and he could not not be deterred from sin. He would be like an unliving stone, impervious to scripture or preaching.

That creed is error because it says ALL MEN are deterred from sin. If Total Inability is true, then only regenerated men could be deterred from sin.

You can't have it both ways, you can't say a natural man lacks all ability to respond to God, and then say he has ability, that is a direct contradiction.

This is typical of Calvinism, Calvinism will ALWAYS contradict itself. It really says NOTHING at all. Calvinists claim that God decrees all that comes to pass, and that nothing can possibly happen unless God decrees it, including evil, and yet God is not the author of sin.

If you ask an honest Calvinist whether the Newtown killer could have killed 20 children unless God decreed and ordained it, they will say no. They will even go so far as to say that the young man who killed these children could not have acted in any other way, and yet God is not the author of sin.

It's all double-talk.

 

That is a better question, and as usual, whether we agree or disagree, you posts are honest and to the point. I have read and read books on both sides, and the only real conclusion I can come to is that we as human beings, fallen and flawed with limited mental capacity, will never understand the issue fully this side of heaven. It is just that the sovereignty side makes more Biblical sense to me than the other, not saying there are some elements of free will mixed in we do not understand.

 

I disagree, if men totally lack all ability for good, they would be unable to even recognize their sinfulness. Of course we know that even unsaved men have a conscience and many men are filled with sorrow and regret for wrongs they have committed. Though Judas did not apply to Jesus for forgiveness, he knew he had betrayed an innocent man and was so filled with guilt that he killed himself.

Total Inability is simply false. It is that simple.

 

What do speed limits do?

Do they "deter" folks from speeding?

Do stop lights "deter" folks from running over each other?

Do folks still speed?

Do folks still run stoplights?

Just what do the non-cal folks consider "deter" means?

 

Exactly, and this is why Total Inability is error. All men are quite able to recognize their sinfulness and thus turn from sin.

A man may be an adulterer, but feel guilty for his sin and turn from it. This does not save him of course, but it shows men are capable of turning from evil and choosing what is good. The scriptures show even a child has this ability.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

This verse shows that babies do not understand right from wrong, but mature and come to know the difference, and that at that point even a child can refuse evil and choose good.

Calvinism teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE, that natural man can only REFUSE GOOD and CHOOSE EVIL.

Calvinism ALWAYS says the exact reverse of scripture. Amazing, but true.

If it was your nature to do evil, you would not realize you are doing evil. It is because sin is unnatural that men feel condemned and guilty when they sin.

Does a lion feel guilty when it pounces on a baby zebra? NO, because that is his nature, he is compelled to do so.

Men are not compelled to sin, in fact, all men have a conscience. Look up the word conscience in any dictionary;

The very definition of conscience refutes Total Inability and Depravity as it says all men have the URGE TO PREFER RIGHT OVER WRONG.

Total Inability is absolutely false.

 

Yes, precisely. So why does the Westminster Confession say that knowing about the Great White Throne Judgment will "deter all men from sin"?

Ask any man on the street if Christian tradition says that all will be judged for their sins and you will get the truthful answer--yes. Then ask them if that knowledge is deterring them from sinning, answer--no.

 

If one is to understand "deter" then one would understand what I posted.

However, because in this thread the OP is attempting to discredit by showing a certain contradiction, then it is important that the author know what "deter" means.

BESIDES, the OP takes a quote and applies it totally out of the intended context. Here is the whole paragraph.

"As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there will be a day of judgement, both to deter all men from sin and to give greater consolation to the godly in their adversity, so also He will have the date of that day kept unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and always be watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come. Also, so that men may be affected in such a way that they ever say, 'Come Lord Jesus, come quickly!' Amen."
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NOTE: "As Christ would have US to be certainly persuaded that there will be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and to give greater consolation to the godly in their adversity..."

The article IS NOT stating that all men are deterred, it is stating the WE are to deter all men from sin!

We are to be, as the obviously visible police, ready and seeking judgment and justice upon all ungodliness, just as the Holy Spirit that lives within us brings to the heathen world rebuke through the believer. Doing such brings certain deterrence to all from and of sin. Folks used to apologize for inappropriate language when used in the presence of a believer, and real believers used to openly rebuke the sin and sinner.

That YOU did not recognize the illustration of speeding and stop light is problematic.

Folks have selected a piece here and there of the 1686 Westminster Confession and attempted to show contradiction where there is none. To do so ranges as at best a misunderstanding or at worse a deceitful attempt to do harm.

I choose to consider you as merely mistaken in the attempt to discredit the 1689 WC and therefor incapable of recognizing the significance of the illustration I gave.

 

It is YOUR OP in which YOU misapplied what the WC was stating that I was responding, too.

The first response I gave, you didn't express the insight needed, so I brought more clarification.

That clarification seems to have upset you, but you continue to contend basing your defense upon your misapplication and therefore your defense is frail.

NOW, RIGHT NOW, IN THIS CURRENT AGE the heathen of this world are being "deterred" by the Holy Spirit through the church. The deterring will continue until the Lord comes.

THAT is the meaning of the WC as appropriately applicable in that part I quoted.

I have NEVER read on the BB where a cal or even a non-cal has tried to make this part of the WC an issue as you are attempting.

If you contend against the heathen being PREDETERMINED as condemned ALREADY, that is refuted in John 3 - you can argue with John about that.

If you contend that salvation is NOT by Grace through faith - alone - with NO help from man, that is refuted in Ephesians - you can argue with Paul about that.

If your scheme is to show some "free choice / will" exists, that is refuted in John 1 - then argue with John which CLEARLY shows such "schemes" are NOT valid.

 

Thanks, agedman. Good response.