Making a Decision

[Me2]

Post deleted for being off topic. If you wish to discuss things of those nature, please start your own thread in the appropriate forum. This forum is for discussions of soteriology.

[ August 16, 2003, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Gilmore:
"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Cor. 12:3. Any testimony I give is the fruit of faith (i.e., works) not faith itself.

That may be true ... but it is irrelevant since it is a not a testimony of faith that saves us but rather faith itself. The Scripture declares that we are justified by faith. Why is that such a problem for you? </font>[/QUOTE]The Decision is not even a true testimony which would be a good work. It is a false testimony. It is saying that I, by my own reason and strength, was able to believe in Jesus my Lord. It is boasting which is excluded under the article of justification.

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:26-28

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
The Decision is not even a true testimony which would be a good work. It is a false testimony. It is saying that I, by my own reason and strength, was able to believe in Jesus my Lord. It is boasting which is excluded under the article of justification.

First, the "article of justification" is not the guide of truth. The word of God is. Second, I am not arguing that making a decision is "saying that I, by my own reason and strength, was able to believe in Jesus my Lord." I do not believe that and preach against it. But that is not at issue here. The issue is that justification comes by faith. There is no other kind.

The "decision" is a person who "confesses with their mouth Jesus as Lord and believes in their heart that God has raised him from the dead." You are arguing against what Paul teaches to be true.

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:26-28

You quote this but I wonder why. It refutes your position. I shows that faith is not a deed of the law. Righteousness comes by faith. That faith is the faith of the individual who makes a decision to believe in Christ after his mind has been opened to the things of God (Rom 10:9ff.).

 

[John Gilmore]

There is no other kind of faith than the faith that which we receive immediately when the Holy Spirit calls us and regenerates us. Salvation is not a two step process. There is no decision on our part only the confession of the faith that has already been created in us without any cooperation from us.

When I speak of the article of justification, I am speaking of salvation as opposed to sanctification. After the Holy Spirit has called us, regenerated us, and created faith in us; we can, to a limited extent, cooperate with the Holy Spirit to do good works.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrianT:
Then man does NOT have a choice, for there is only one option. The choice has been made for him, and he has "no choice" in the matter.

ARGHHH!!! Here we go again ... As we have said before, he can do anything he wants to do. He is limited only by his own sin. No one is making him reject God. He is doing what he wants to do. He has the option that at anytime he so desires, he can change his mind. His inability is a moral inability, brought on by his own sinfulness. Every unbeliever I talk to has the choice; they simply choose not to make it. </font>[/QUOTE]Then you are saying that Jesus' atonement for sins of the world is a useless matter.

If Jesus atonement is for the sins of the world as scriptures declare, then it is for all the sins of the world, and man is not limited by his own sin as you suggest.

Jesus' atonement for the sins of the world established once-for-all that salvation is a matter of faith alone and nothing more.

Atoned-for Sins are not used against man when man is judged. Judgement is on the basis of faith alone.

"Every unbeliever has the choice they simply choose not to make it."

Doesn't that counter the doctrine of "the elect"?

How can one be "elect" if one must make a choice?

If everyone must choose, 'everyone' includes those who are "the elect".

If everyone has to make a choice for themselves, then what is the purpose of an "elect".

Everyone receives a call from the Holy Spirit.

Everyone must make a decision regarding that call.

Thus everyone receives the call and chooses to believe or not believe, it is not a matter of some nebulous "elect".

The call becomes effectual based upon the choice of the individual.

Where is Calvin when you need him?

 

[dianetavegia]

Mark 9:24
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!"

 

[DCK]

I'm sure this debate will go on and on, since it has raged for centuries already. I can only say that I grew up in a SBC church that was definitely Arminian (even though no one ever used that word). I was told confidently that "God chooses those who choose Him." That settled that. Only after I reached adulthood and began to study Scripture on my own did I discover that this assertion did not seem to correspond to what was written in the Bible. It made little sense once Scripture was examined in its totality. At least, that was my impression. I can only say here that it doesn't bother me at all to think that the Lord predetermined my salvation, or that "free will" as commonly defined is not a necessary correlative to moral responsibility. Although I don't fully grasp the idea of election, I will continue to study it, hopefully without an agenda to either prove or disprove it.

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Mark 9:24
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!"

</font>[/QUOTE]

When faith does not err in its object, but lays hold on that true object, although with a weak faith, or at least tries and wants to lay hold on Christ, then there is true faith, and it justifies. The reason for this is demonstrated in those lovely statements in Philippians 3:12: “I apprehend, or rather I am apprehended by Christ” and Galatians 4:9: “You have known God, or rather have been known by God.” Scripture shows a beautiful example of this in Mark 9:24: “I believe; help my unbelief.” (Martin Chemnitz, Loci Theologici)

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
There is no other kind of faith than the faith that which we receive immediately when the Holy Spirit calls us and regenerates us. Salvation is not a two step process. There is no decision on our part only the confession of the faith that has already been created in us without any cooperation from us.

When I speak of the article of justification, I am speaking of salvation as opposed to sanctification. After the Holy Spirit has called us, regenerated us, and created faith in us; we can, to a limited extent, cooperate with the Holy Spirit to do good works.

When Christ calls man to believe, to take up his cross and follow him, to confess him as Lord, that is a decision no matter which way you cut it. It is a decision enabled by the Spirit's work in teh life. To deny it is a decision is to deny the very reality of the act. The decision to believe flows inevitably from the Spirit's creation of faith. You simply reject hte idea of decision, not the reality of what the decision is.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Then you are saying that Jesus' atonement for sins of the world is a useless matter. [/quyote]What??? I said no such thing. I did not even address the atonement. I think that the atonement is not only not useless, it is necessary. It it not only necessary, it is also effectual. You seem to be showing once again that you don't know what you are talking about.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If Jesus atonement is for the sins of the world as scriptures declare, then it is for all the sins of the world, and man is not limited by his own sin as you suggest.

This doesn't make sense. I believe the atonement is for the world. Man is limited by his own sinful choices.

Jesus' atonement for the sins of the world established once-for-all that salvation is a matter of faith alone and nothing more.

I agree.

Atoned-for Sins are not used against man when man is judged. Judgement is on the basis of faith alone.

Only partially true. Sins are the basis for eternal judgment (Rev 21:8; Rev 20:11-15; John 5:22-24; etc.). To say that judgmetn is on the basis of faith is simply wrong. However you are right that atoned for sins are not used against a man when he is judged. That man is judged by Christ's righteousness.

[QUOTEDoesn't that counter the doctrine of "the elect"? </font>[/QUOTE]No.

How can one be "elect" if one must make a choice?

Because election is election that includes the choice and the ability to make that choice. We have been through this many times. Weren't you listening then??

If everyone must choose, 'everyone' includes those who are "the elect".

Yes it does. The elect most certainly choose. The non-elect choose to reject Christ or to go on their own way without him.

If everyone has to make a choice for themselves, then what is the purpose of an "elect".

The elect are God's chosen ones for salvation. The purpose is the glory of God in grace as a study of Eph 1:4-11 will show.

Everyone receives a call from the Holy Spirit.

I agree.

Everyone must make a decision regarding that call.

I agree.

Thus everyone receives the call and chooses to believe or not believe, it is not a matter of some nebulous "elect".

Only partially true. Everyone is called to believe. He commands all men everywhere to repent. But the elect are the ones who do that.

The call becomes effectual based upon the choice of the individual.

No it doesn't. You have not one verse of Scripture that backs this up. We hashed this out many times and not one of you -- not Bill, not Ray, not you, not Bob, -- not a single one of you ever supported this claim from Scripture.

Where is Calvin when you need him?

Who needs him?? I certainly don't. All we need is Scripture.

 

[Yelsew]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The call becomes effectual based upon the choice of the individual.

No it doesn't. You have not one verse of Scripture that backs this up. We hashed this out many times and not one of you -- not Bill, not Ray, not you, not Bob, -- not a single one of you ever supported this claim from Scripture.</font>[/QUOTE]This should not require a scripture to understand it. When you were young and your parent(s) called you for dinner, the call was only effectual when you showed up for dinner. If you did not, you missed dinner! Depending on you parent(s), you may or may not have gotten fed before going to bed. If you did not, I'll bet you didn't miss the next call.

The Call of God on an individual is only effectual when the individual responds to the call. If God calls and you do not respond, can the call be effectual? No, it is an interactive call...He calls and you either respond or not respond the choice is yours.