Maranatha Academic Credentials...

My suspicion is that Joshua's problem with MBBC is a lot less about credibility and a lot more about theology.

 

Chick,

What percent of the faculty hold Ph.D.'s?

Where were those Ph.D.'s earned?

Joshua

 

Chick, also regarding the BJU link:

I noticed that almost 20% of their faculty had at least one degree from BJU, that's a strong connection.

In addition, of the small number of faculty with Ph.D.'s, almost half had earned them at BJU.

Joshua

 

Don't forget about the fact that PhD's and all that are just pieces of paper with man's approval on them. Most of the men and women at MBBC are some of the finest men of God that I know. Two of the most godly of them aren't even Bible teachers, they are Dr.s of music, yet they have godly character and Bible knowledge far beyond countless men who profess themselves to be wise in their own eyes!

Wisdom doesn't come from a doctorate from an accredited university. It comes from God. MBBC just happens to have both!

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ]

 

Chick,

All of the numbers and data I offered was based on the information on their website. I didn't know that it was not the most current information. (Note, I did not count D. Min.'s, D.D.'s or other similar degrees as Ph.D.'s. I only counted Ph.D.'s, Ed.D.'s, and Th.D.'s. Do your numbers include these non-equivalent degrees?)

My beef is with many baptist educational institutions of this category whose existence cheapens the reputataion of more rigorous and mainstream baptist educational institutions. I can't count the number of times I've said "I went to a baptist seminary, but one with rigorous academics" and heard someone say (with some justification) "Isn't that an oxymoron?"

My primary beef with Maranatha is their apparent obsession with the petty legalism that also characterizes schools like Bob Jones University. My secondary "beef" was simply a natural question about the academic preparedness of their faculty. In the current buyer's market for Ph.D.-equipped faculty, even very small colleges often have a faculty where 85% or more of their faculty hold Ph.D.'s. A school where many of the degrees come from Bob Jones or similar Bible colleges, few of the faculty hold earned research doctorates from recognized universities, and student life is defined by rules built around a cultural stereotype rather than the Bible seems academically suspect to me.

Joshua

 

For what it's worth, I'm not wild about legalistic schools either. But from what I understand, Bob Jones doesn't give Ph.D.s away just because you can walk and chew bubble gum. Granted, it's not a place I'd send anyone. But to belittle someone's education just because they earned it there is hardly fair. And Maranatha's accreditation from North Central says something.

 

Tom, my posts have increasingly become more strident because eveyone has bristled so astonishingly at me even questioning the academics at Maranatha.

If you follow the original thread, you'll see that I said, "If I were a potential student, these things would raise questions for me." The two things were: the strident legalism, and the academic preparation of the faculty.

I do find Ph.D.'s from BJU to be suspect because the school is not accredited and because their faculty has, generally, very little training outside the narrow world of ultra-fundamentalism.

Maranatha may provide a generally fine education, but that is not readily evident by their campus environment and their faculty's training.

Joshua

 

Chick,

Everything you say is very encouraging about Maranatha, and answers many of the concerns I raised.

I would argue that, even when I worked in undergraduate admissions at a primarily undergraduate college (7 years ago), the norm was already for undergraduate institutions to have a very high percentage of Ph.D.'s on their faculty. There are just too many unemployed Ph.D.'s out there willing to work for peanuts. Our percentage was 94% if I remember correctly, and some of that 6% was comprised of people with terminal M.F.A.'s.

Thanks again for your clarification. It sounds like Maranatha isn't a bad choice for an IFB who is comfortable with their rules.

Joshua

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chick Daniels:

Not a happy thought for young aspiring students working through graduate programs hoping to teach! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, not all. I've gone back and forth on doing a Ph.D. for years. It was a part of my plan as an undergraduate and as a seminary student, but each year it gets a little harder to take four+ years out of my life, for very little income (stipends run $12,000-$16,000 per year plus a tuition waiver) only to know that my employment prospects are at best fair even coming from a competitive university.

Just to give you an idea of the numbers involved, a competitive Ph.D. program in Religion can expect 200 applicants for 15 slots or so (these numbers are almost exact for Emory, a program I've looked at in the past). This level of competition means that they'll be rejecting honors graduates with 700+ on each section of the GRE and outstanding recommendations.

With this level of competition to get into a Ph.D. program, you'd think that the elite few who get in and complete the program would have jobs waiting for them...

When I worked for a private liberal arts college, we had one opening in English and had 300 applicants with Ph.D.'s.

Scary indeed.

Joshua

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua Villines ]

 

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Don't forget about the fact that PhD's and all that are just pieces of paper with man's approval on them.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

O.K. Joy, whenever you need heart surgery, maybe you should go to a quack doctor who has a medical diploma that looks essentially the same as one from an accredited school of medicine. Do you think you will knowingly do that?

 

Joshua brings up a good point. There is a glut of Ph.D. folks around who only want to teach. Seminaries should encourage Ph.D. graduates to seek employment and ministry in other areas as well. There just aren't that many teaching positions to go around. I can't tell you how many research doctoral students I know who were bitterly disappointed in searching for teaching positions that just aren't available. Our seminaries do no favors to the students by preparing them strictly for academic careers. Some evangelical seminaries are making great strides in being more helpful in this area. Some are lagging far behind I'm afraid. Actually, the Chronicle of Higher Education has documented that this is a problem in all academic disciplines. There has even been talk of implementing degree programs beyond the Ph.D. in order to weed out some of the numerous Ph.D. graduates. Don't know if it will ever fly. I think we'll see Ph.D. programs get stricter first (And we are).

 

Tom,

A seminary Ph.D. or Th.D. is almost useless these days except for the very small number of positions open within schools affiliated with the denomination and theological stripe of the seminary.

As you know there is a hierarchy of universities that goes something like:

Ivy-leagues
Near-Ivies
Major research Universities
Other Universities with specific, strong programs
Elite Seminaries
Most State Universities
Other Seminaries
Other Schools

Generally, you need a Ph.D. from a shool at least one tier above where you want to teach. People with seminary Ph.D.'s start out at a significant disadvantage, and the glut of Ph.D.'s from the other tiers have about shut them out.

The fact that competitive universities only take 8 or so Ph.D. students in many disciplines (Emory's 15 or so is an exceptionally high number, but they are spread over 7 disciplines meaning usually 2-3 in NT for example) means they are trying to address the over-supply; but it will take many years for things to even out.

Still, if you want to teach, you should target the top 3 tiers if you want to hedge your bets on employment.

Joshua

 

How ironic that the degree of prestige as described above is directly proportional to the strength of liberal theology's death-grip on those institutions.

 

Siegfried,

I was actually talking across the board, not just in religion.


It is true, though, that what you consider "liberal" theology is normative at most of the academically rigorous institutions in the US. Fundamentalists make up only a very small part of the nation's Christians.

Joshua

 

I assumed that you were speaking across the board, and I agree that fundamentalists' numbers are small among those who "profess Christianity." I avoid the phrase "the nation's Christians" because who really knows the makeup of the nation's Christians but God? I'm sure God knows of a lot of "professing Christians," including fundamentalists, whose faith is not genuine.

I also disagree with your use of the term "rigorous institutions." Just because an institution has a great academic reputation doesn't mean it's rigorous, and vice versa. I've read enough articles on grade inflation in the Ivy League to be a bit skeptical.

 

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;How ironic that the degree of prestige as described above is directly proportional to the strength of liberal theology's death-grip on those institutions.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

It is interesting that the posters to this forum cover quite a range of opinion about what constitutes quality in education. I suspect that some of the most extreme fundamentalists who post here have little regard for educational quality, at least they seem to imply that in their posts. Many have stated that the amount of education does not matter and they take every opportunity to make sarcastic comments about those with higher education. That correlation is understandable in a way. People seek out their own kind in most types of interactions, including church membership. I think that Pastors without a good education are more likely to take extreme and fundamentalist positions on various things. Those church members with good education will tend to seek out churches and pastors like themselves. I believe that education is a valuable experience and I also think that a diploma mill type of degree is not education.

But there is a distinct trend at work in the population and that trend is that more and more people are getting what I would consider a good education. That trend tends to work against fanaticism and fundamentalism as the general level of education rises.