Mark 9:44 "Where their worm dieth not"

[skypair]

Oliver B. Greene:

WHAT IS THE WORM? That is one of the easiest questions in the word of God: The "worm" is the part of the sinner that will never burn up, never cease to exist, but will be tormented forever and forever!!

Only thing about that is the worm there is allegorical and the reference is literal.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

"Where the tick dieth not" would strike more fear into me.

 

[Brother Bob]

I am sorry I didn't make it clear but I was referring to Mark 9, where this quote from Job would be a good background reference.:thumbs:

Yea, I understood you. My point is Job's worms were going to destroy his flesh, but in Mark 9, the flesh would die but never die, so neither would the worm, was my point. Just a thought.

 

[mmetts]

It IS another Jewish reference, but this time to the fact that those who should know and don't (national Israel) will be gnashing their teeth in hell/sheol. This makes it so that wherever you see "weeping and gnashing of teeth," the reference is to Israel. Ex: Mt 8:12, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30

This usually throws" those who don't understand the distinction between the 2 dispensations -- church and Israel -- can't really see this. :type:

skypair

But I like WD's "Dune" Theology! :applause:

 

[TCGreek]

Yea, I understood you. My point is Job's worms were going to destroy his flesh, but in Mark 9, the flesh would die but never die, so neither would the worm, was my point. Just a thought.

We are in agreement.:thumbs:

 

[Bro. Williams]

Only thing about that is the worm there is allegorical and the reference is literal.

skypair

Can you honestly prove that?

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I think a good reference yet to mentioned on the thread is:

Psalms 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
And of course you can tie this in with:

Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
and

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
...so that we now have serpent and worm closely referencing one another, at least within these passages.

 

[Allan]

Can you honestly prove that?

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I think a good reference yet to mentioned on the thread is:

Psalms 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

And of course you can tie this in with:

Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

and

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

You just proved it !

 

[skypair]

Can you honestly prove that?

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I think a good reference yet to mentioned on the thread is:

Psalms 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

That's allegory right there. However, Gehenna was a known place among the Jews and could be the "refuse pile" of burning, worm-consumed flesh during the MK, right? Just like your city dump.

...so that we now have serpent and worm closely referencing one another, at least within these passages.

Nah. Worms and snakes are different even allegorically. Worms would consume the dead flesh that the serpent killed.

skypair

 

[skypair]

You just proved it !

Are you saying that Christ on the cross, rather than taking on the imagery of sin/serpent judged/brass, took on the imagery of a "worm" (David or man but not Christ) being judged for consuming sinners' flesh?? Whose school of allegory is that? :BangHead:

skypair

 

[Bro. Williams]

Why couldn't it be both? He was afterall both man and God.

 

[Bro. Williams]

That's allegory right there. However, Gehenna was a known place among the Jews and could be the "refuse pile" of burning, worm-consumed flesh during the MK, right? Just like your city dump.

Nah. Worms and snakes are different even allegorically. Worms would consume the dead flesh that the serpent killed.

skypair

You referred to MK (I'm assuming Millinnial Kingdom) as a past thing, is that your stance?

 

[Bro. Williams]

Back to the allegory and literal reference thing... How can one identify which is which and what is what? And why half and half, why not all literal, or all allegorical?

Would it not be easy to assume since, we as Christians will take on a body like that of our Lord that the lost will take on a body like that of their lord?

 

[Allan]

Are you saying that Christ on the cross, rather than taking on the imagery of sin/serpent judged/brass, took on the imagery of a "worm" (David or man but not Christ) being judged for consuming sinners' flesh?? Whose school of allegory is that? :BangHead:

skypair

What are you talking about?!!

You stated:

Only thing about that is the worm there is allegorical and the reference is literal.

Bro. Williams them states:

Can you honestly prove that?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think a good reference yet to mentioned on the thread is:

Psalms 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

And of course you can tie this in with:

Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

and

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

He asked you to prove your statement and then he posted 3 distinct verses, that actually proved your point. The worm (and snake) though litterally being addressed are allegorical in relation to the portions of scripture set forth.

Like, it was a literal worm David refernced but allegorical in relation to him being hated by men like a worm.

I don't really know how in the world this guy ties the worm analogy of David to the Fiery Serpent of Moses. They are two completely different animals unless I miss read the Hebrew and it actually stated the fiery 'worm'. But I didn't :thumbs:
However, the serpent was symbolic of the peoples sin, which God sent the fiery serpents in as punishment against them. The symbol of serpent was the curse for their sin, it did not represent them but the curse recieved for their disobedience came. They needed to acknowledge that and repent.

Jesus is that same symbol, the object of our salvation who is Himself that very Salvation.

I notice that no scripture is used to declare when we die "our worm" goes to Heaven. And that in Heaven there were 24 "worms" on thrones and later singing, and casting their crowns. But hey, what do I know. I'm the village idiot. :laugh:

 

[Allan]

Back to the allegory and literal reference thing... How can one identify which is which and what is what? And why half and half, why not all literal, or all allegorical?

Would it not be easy to assume since, we as Christians will take on a body like that of our Lord that the lost will take on a body like that of their lord?

Please show us where Satans body is that of a 'worm'.
Scritpure states Satan walks up and down the earth. Kinda hard for a serpent and worm to do since they wiggle and slide. Satan is discribed as a roaring lion as well. So will some unsave people go to hell looking much like a kitty cat??

 

[skypair]

You referred to MK (I'm assuming Millinnial Kingdom) as a past thing, is that your stance?

No sir. The IMAGERY comes from the OT -- the APPLICATION is to the MK future!

Back to the allegory and literal reference thing... How can one identify which is which and what is what? And why half and half, why not all literal, or all allegorical?

Gehenna was literally outside the walls of Jerusalem. It was a valley that they filled up and burned their garbage. Gehenna will be literal in Messiah's kingdom future. The bodies of Messiah's enemies will be burned and "worm-eaten" there.

Primary rule of the interpretation of scripture: "If the literal sense makes good sense, seek no other sense."

Would it not be easy to assume since, we as Christians will take on a body like that of our Lord that the lost will take on a body like that of their lord?

Meaning like serpents or like worms?? I still don't see the connection.

However, the thought is valid. Christ died to resurrect ALL bodies from sin --- so even the lost get resurrected bodies for the GWT, Rev 20:13. But after the judgment, they experience the 2nd physical death and THEN will be spirits like as Satan for eternity -- condemned to the lake of fire in SPIRITUAL dying throughout eternity.

skypair

 

[skypair]

What are you talking about?!!

We agree. Sorry about the disjoint explanation I made. Yes, a worm is a literal thing. And yes, it is used allegorically because the literal makes no sense.

skypair

 

[J.D.]

Not really, Scarlett O. I may be wrong but if Henry is Matthew Henry, I think he is a Calvinist.
If you say "you can tell that they are not Calvinists" because they opined that those lost people in hell "had the opportunity" to be saved and neglected it, many Calvinists still think that way, really.

Harold Camping, for instance, whom one here on this board described as "sound in doctrine" when it comes to salvation says that the sinner must plead to God for mercy and when he does so God is gracious enough to save him by regenerating him, or quickening him, or in other words, "causing him to be born again".

This mostly right after he says that the unregenerate cannot come to God on God's terms (speak of double speak).

How then can one plead for God's mercy if he does not have the ability to come to God on God's terms ?

He that cometh to God must believe that He is says Hebrews 11:6, and I guess those two words, "He is", has the accent and emphasis on "IS", which includes everything there is to believe about God.

So, yeah, they may be Calvinists, for all we know.

Cheers.

You may be speaking of my comments about Harold Camping. Let me clarify something. I've never been fond of Camping's inistance upon people "begging" for mercy to be saved and then "just maybe" God will save them. My position is that the reprobate do not seek the Lord and will not come for mercy or any thing else. Those that come to Christ seeking life receive it abundantly.

But I've been tolerant, until recently, of Camping's views because I thought he was making an application of many of the Puritans' view that conversion must include a "season" of ever-building guilt under the law, by which the sinner eventually responds in total self-loathing and turns to Christ for salvation. I personally do not believe that a prolonged period of condemnation is necessary to conversion. The puritans made the mistake of trying to make their own conversion experience the standard by which to judge others. And that's what Camping has done.

But since I defended him in that post, I've been listening more closely to him and I now agree that he is getting way off track in his soteriology. He's even beginning to deny total depravity now in an effort to answer the question you asked in your post "How then can one plead for God's mercy if he does not have the ability to come to God on God's terms ?"

We certainly shouldn't be surprised at any of his heresies. Anyone that can boldly stand up and declare that he knows what the bible clearly says no man can know (the date of the Lord's return) can not be trusted.

 

[J.D.]

And as for their worm, I tried to kill some maggots one time. They're hard to kill. At least the ones I was trying to kill were. Bug spray had no effect. I put gasoline on them and it made them angry but not dead. Then I lit the gasoline to burn them, and they would continue to crawl around in the fire until enough heat would finally cause them to explode like pop corn. The whole time this was happening I was wondering if God was giving me a vision of hell!

Sorry to gross you out, but this really happened and I thought it related, and I think it may be the picture that the Lord had in mind with "their worm dieth not".

 

[Bro. Williams]

I probably should have given a disclaimer at the beginning of my posts on this thread that I do not know the answer to this question but am going to give some opinions and views that I have seen and heard.

My personal position is that whatever it is, it is bad. Since I do believe in a literal hell with a literal fire, I am inclined to believe that this involves a literal worm. How? And to what extent in the context of "their worm", I don't know.

One other position I was made aware of in this passage is that the worm is a worm that has the sole purpose of consuming the never dying flesh over and over. Consuming as in Isa 66:24, Job 7:5, Job 19:26, and Acts 12:23.

The problem is, I cannot remember, for the life of me, where I heard that view...

oh well.

I can say this, I do thank the Lord that I will never personally know this from experience.