Mark:

Mark 2:15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his discples, for there were any who followed him. When the teachers of the law who wer Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples, Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners." (Reminds me of a few people on this board.)
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Mark 3:4 Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath; to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent. (If you are wondering about the context. Some legalists were complaing that by picking grain to keep from starving the disciples were violating God's law. They cared more about their legalism than they did about God's love of man.)

Mark 3:32-34 has an interesting little thing:
A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, 'Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him, and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (Back in Matthew, he told us his will was that we love one another.)

Mark 7:5-8 is a rather frightening set of verses for modern Pharisees too.

"So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with unclean hands?" He replied, "Isaiah was righ when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written. "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain, their teachings are but rules taught by men." You have let go of the commands of God and are holding onto the traditions of men. And he said to them You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, "Honor your father and your mother, and anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death, but you say, that is a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever help you might otherise have received from me is Corban (that is a gift devoted to God) then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition, that you have handed down, and you do many things like that. [/b} (Gee, maybe NOT helping a sinner because he is a sinner? Or maybe NOT helping a sinner because you have to be at church everytime the doors open instead of helping at the homeless shelter? You think "I don't have to love him because he isn't a Christian," falls into "nullifying the word of God," ?)

Mark 9:38-41 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop because he was not one of us." (Sounds familiar doesn't it? Billy Graham is unsaved because he didn't condemn others) "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me for whoever is not against us if for us." (Hmm, Billy seems to always be calling people to Christ, would that mean that he could be for us?) I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

Mark 10:18 and on : "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered, "No one is good - except god alone. You know the commandments: do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother." "Teacher," he declared, "All these I have kept since I was a boy." Jesus looked at him and loved him, "One thing you lack." he said, "Go, sell everything you have and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Them come, follow me.

The ONLY thing the boy lacked was love enough to sacrifice his for the poor. The ONLY thing.

Mark 11:25 "And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." (There is is again. Forgive so you can be forgiven. What if you DON'T forgive? What if you hold onto that righteous right to feel superior?)

Mark 12:28-29

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?

"The most important one," answered Jesus, is this: 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all our heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.
THE SECOND IS THIS: "Love your neighbor as yourself." THERE IS NO COMMANDMENT GREATER THAN THESE." (There it is AGAIN. Obviously, he must have meant something else. I mean, surely all you people preaching hate and judgment and unforgiveness can explain it away some how. Christ must not have MEANT that when he said it. Or wait, maybe it ONLY applied to that Pharisee. Sure, that's it. Couldn't have applied to EVERYONE could it?)

That's Mark.

 

Larry for one.

With your statements that because Billy Graham chose NOT to condemn other men Graham was not preaching Christ.

JD, insisting that the words "for she loved much," could not possibly mean that she was forgiven because she loved.

The thread on captial punihsment, that has many people in it saying we have a god given duty to kill criminals.

Look around the board. Its all over it.

Its under different guises, but its there.

Like some snake waiting to leap out.

I suggested that instead of JUST reading Paul, people read the WHOLE word of God, and worded it poorly. People took it to say I was saying Paul didn't matter, and when I corrected that, they ignored the correction, going on for post after post after post that I was telling people to set one part of the bible above another, when in fact, I stated NUMEROUS times I was telling them to STOP putting one part of the bible above the rest.

Granny, telling me it was heretitical to teach love.

People accusing Diane of gossip.

Its all over these boards.

People arguing FOR the right to react with hate, trying to justify it as a Christian's duty to correct.

Christian correction is LOVING correction, it is encouraging, it is uplifting. It is NOT hate filled.

 

Larry,

Did you edit your post? I saw where you said it, untangled saw where you said it, and others did. You can see they did by reading their words in order.

Here are the posts, staring with your post and moving forward. Are you suggesting that everyone of these posters lied about what you said?

Even assuming the comment you deny, that others obvious saw, is not there and never was, to ask "to what were they converted," certain is name calling and actually implying a LOT worse than "He isn't saved."

It is an unChristian remark about a man of God.


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PastorLarry
Moderator
Member # 979

posted 18-06-2005 08:45 AM
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Based on Graham's statements, including others like the one above, it is open to doubt whether or not Graham is even an evangelical. In referrring his "converts" to local churches, he includes apostate churches and churches with false doctrine. And studies of his crusades show that an abysmal number of converts remain in local churches just one year after their conversion. Which leads us to ask, To what were they converted?

It is possible that Graham as done less with more influence than any evangelist of hte modern era.
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Posts: 13949 | From: Michigan | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged |

untangled
Member
Member # 3771

posted 18-06-2005 08:49 AM
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I think that saying he is lost is a bit much. Maybe you disagree because he is silent on some issues, but he still preaches salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
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Pastor Larry
Moderator
Member # 979

posted 18-06-2005 09:07 AM
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I didn't say he is lost. And the issues I am talking about are not issues on which he is silent. When he teaches that baby baptism "does something" regenerative, that is neither silent, nor salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (which is insufficient anyway). When he says that Muslims, Jews, and people who follow other religions, may go to heaven, that is neither silent, nor salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (which is still insufficient anyway).

Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Graham does not clearly preach that message, and includes in his organizing committees those who explicitly reject that message. Once someone has compromised the "evangel" ... the gospel ... they are no longer an evangelical.
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TomMann
Member
Member # 3690

posted 18-06-2005 09:08 AM
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My disagreement with Graham is with decisional regineration..... or if you prefer the term conditional salvation.... That is that there is something we must do to bring salvation to us... Sorry but I still believe that "Salvation is of the Lord".
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just-want-peace
1,000 Posts Club
Member # 2691

posted 18-06-2005 09:36 AM
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I began to question BG several years ago during the peak of Clinton's sexcapades brouhaha.

He, BG, said something to the effect of "Well Pres. Clinton is a good looking man, and I can understand the womens attraction to him."

I don't know the context, and that was all I heard/read, but he appeared to be implicitly relieving Clinton of any guilt in regard to the dalliances.

Been a mite leery of BG since!
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Marcia
2,000 Posts Club
Member # 8589

posted 18-06-2005 03:58 PM
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I was disturbed by these remarks and by much of the interview (which I read, didn't see, since I don't have cable). Together with some other things he's said, my view of him has altered.

I see him as going soft on the gospel, because if the wrath of God on sin is not preached, then the sacrifice of Christ for forgiveness of sins loses
its "punch." You can't have one without the other.

And by evading King's question about Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, and others, Graham gives the impression that he believes that they might be saved without knowing and trusting Christ. Even if he does not believe this, he left that open by not taking the opportunity to speak out on it.

Other Christians on Larry King have been very upfront and explicit about Jesus being the only way -- Lee Stroble, for one. So why couldn't BG be the same way?
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TexasSky
Active Member
Member # 11662

posted 19-06-2005 08:53 AM
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Wow - Billy Graham gives the authority of judgment to Christ and some of you call him lost for saying that.

Billy Graham says "Christ told us to love everyone, and I do," and you call him unsaved.

Wow.
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Pastor Larry
Moderator
Member # 979

posted 19-06-2005 12:23 PM
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Jesus Christ told us the standard by which he judges people. When Christ told us the standard, why didn't Graham hold to that standard? Does he not believe God's word?
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LadyEagle

Moderator
Member # 2728

posted 19-06-2005 01:05 PM
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The broadcast was punctuated with short clips from Graham's appearances on-camera since 1949. The opening clip showed a vigorous 30-year-old Graham in Los Angeles, gesticulating with fervor, a sharp contrast to the 86-year-old man in the studio. "As I got older, I guess I got more mellow," said Graham.

During the interview Graham occasionally became confused, once substituting "the Nigerian Creed" for the Nicene Creed, the basic Christian beliefs adopted during the fourth century. "I'm getting mixed up," he said to King.

Graham has been struggling with hydroencephaly, a brain condition that has required four surgeries in the last four years. He also has prostate cancer and Parkinson's disease. He broke his hip on two recent occasions and now must use a walker.

http://beliefnet.com/story/168/story_16868_1.html
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TaterTot


Member # 2712

posted 19-06-2005 01:12 PM
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Exactly, LE. I think saying he is probably lost is a bit harsh. He may be slipping, but he is still a man who loves the Lord and tries to serve Him, in my humblest of opinions.
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Charles Meadows
1,000 Posts Club
Member # 7475

posted 19-06-2005 02:14 PM
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many people see such a kind minister but it is possible that billy graham is preaching a different jesus then that of the bible.

Billy Graham is certainly preaching a different Jesus than most legalists or Pharisaic Christians would know.

But if I remember correctly Jesus was pretty big on forgiveness.

I don't recall Billy ever dispensing with the need for Jesus - he simply has said that he was not the one judging.

In trying to witness to Muslims and Jews you'll find that a little respect for them and a lack of judgment (I love your soul brother but without Chrahst you're goin to hay-all) do more to show them what Christ is all about then telling them that they and all their friends and family and countrymen are going to hell.

billy graham is probably lost. This typifies the kind of statement that costs evangelicals credibility. Sometimes I'm ashamed to be called an evangelical. Billy's life has been a testament for Christ. He's walked the walk, as opposed to many legalists who talk a good game but have no more love for sinners than the average atheist!
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Posts: 1569 | From: Milton,WV | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |

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Avl1984,

I DO have tunnel vision when it comes to the love of God. So did Paul. So did Peter. So did James. So did the authors of Matthew, Mark, Luke.

Yes, God set up ways to rebuke and judge. Every single passage says it should be done in love.

I don't see much love in these boards.

And "its a debate" is no excuse.

ABSOLUTELY none.

I've noticed that, just as you are doing, the answer to "God said love," always comes back to me with, "you forget God is a God of judgment and holiness," or similar "excuses" for ignoring the command to love.

The bottom line is, "GOD" - not, Av, GOD is given the authority to judge. You aren't good enough, you sure aren't holy.

Neither am I.

It is MY job to teach what God taught so that you can achieve holiness. It is NOT my place to judge if you are worthy of forgivness or not.

You people think that somehow Christ forgiving your sin gives you the right to determine who is or is not worthy of that same forgivness. That's flat out Satanic.

If you would rebuke in love, I would feel differently. There is no love in Larry's words about Graham. NONE.

There is no example of following the biblical methods of rebuking.

But tell me Larry - IF Graham is guilty for not trashing a man on tv, are YOU guilty for not calling up Jerry Falwell yourself and telling him he is wrong? Don't you have just as much responsibility as Graham does? Do you think sitting at home or on this board gossiping about Falwell and Graham is godly rebuke? Don't kid yourself!

I am not trying to twist Larry's words.
Again, obviously I'm not the only one who saw them at they were seen, nor was I the FIRST to see them as they were seen.

 

Av: You can take umbriage if you want, but when you sit back and try to condemn me for "having tunnel vision about the love of Christ," and tell me, in the next post that your right to judge comes from Paul preaching Christ's judgment, I rest my case. CHRIST's judgement is NOT yours.

Romans 12:9 "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil, clint to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brother love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lackign in zeal, but keep your spiritual ferver, serveing the lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge my friends, but leave room for God's wrath for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this you will heep burning coals on his head. Do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 13:8 "Let no debt remain outstanding, expect the continuing debt to love one another for who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Terefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Want to discuss judgement of Christians?

Lets see what Paul really said shall we?

Romans 14:1 "Accept him whose faith is weak without passing judgment on disputable matters."
One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables, the man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does. FOR GOD HAS ACCEPTED HIM, WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE SOMEONE ELSE'S SERVANT?" To his own Master he stands or falls, and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

OPPS. Looks like Paul might not agree that you have the right to dispense God's judgment.

Want more from Paul on the topic?

Look at Romans 14: 19 "Let us make every effort ot do what leads to peace and to mutual edification . "

Romans 14:7 "Accept one another then, jsut as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God."

1 Corinithians 3:3 "You are still wordly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you,are you not wordly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

How does Paul say we need to handle a Christian who sinned? 2 Corinithians 1:5 "If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent. Not to put it too severly. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for hi. Now instead you ought to forgive and comfort him, that he is not overwhelmed by excessive sorry. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him.


Oh, wait, what is this? Galations 6:1 "Brothers, if someone is caught in sin, you should restore him gently .


James 4:11 "Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him, speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law you are not keeping it. There is only one lawgiver and judge, the one who is able to save and destroy, But you, who are you to judge your neighbor?

Let me repeat that. From God's word.

"There is only one lawgiver and judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you, who are you to judge your neighbor?"

So, yes, AV, I do have tunnel vision. I do believe it is wrong to ignore scripture after scripture after scripture that tells me only God has the power to judge, that tells me NOT to judge, that tells me to forgive, that tells me to correct in love, that tells me to love, and say, "Well, God is a God of judgement so I can judge."

I can't judge people.
I can go to you and say, "This is what God says is a sin, and this is what God wants to do for you." But Judge you? No. I'm not God, you aren't God. And that is what I'm doing now. I'm telling, God said, it is a sin to judge others.

So I'm telling you people - if you are fooling yourself into thinking YOU have the power or right or authority to judge - you are WRONG.

You have the duty to lovingly show a brother what Christ says, but you do NOT have the authority to look down on them.

We aren't God.
We don't have the right to condemn God's chosen.

We have the duty to TEACH.
Teaching is NOT judging.
Teaching is NOT condemning.

We are commanded to love.
If we don't love - even the sinner, especially the sinner - we're violating the laws of God.

Argue all you want.
Call me a heretic all you want.

I have God's word to back me up.

STOP hurting yourselves.
The message, "I have the right to judge," is the same kind of message Satan gave in the garden of Eden. It is trying to imply man has the authority of God.

Man is NOT God.
Man will NEVER be God.
Judgment IS GOD'S.

Teach in love.
Or don't teach.

Correct in love.
Or don't correct.

Don't assume you're better than anyone else in the world. You're just one more sinner who God forgave.