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Marriage of the Lamb

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Pastor_Bob, May 28, 2003.

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Who do you believe the Bible teaches will be the Bride of Christ?

  1. All those who have been saved from Adam until the Marriage of the Lamb

    15 vote(s)
    71.4%

  2. All those who have been saved in the New Testament church age

    3 vote(s)
    14.3%

  3. Those saved in the New Testament church age who have prepared for the wedding by continuing in the A

    1 vote(s)
    4.8%

  4. Only those saved and serving the Lord in a Baptist Church

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  5. Only those saved and serving the Lord in a New Testament church regardless of the denomination

    2 vote(s)
    9.5%

  6. I don't know. I've never really studied it.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  7. Other - please explain

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Top Posters
  1. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    In preparing for a message on this topic, I was amazed at the diverse opinions I encountered while researching. Although this is a poll to determine how you believe on this matter, I would like to see some scriptural support posted as well.
     
    #1 Pastor_Bob, May 28, 2003
  2. Istherenotacause

    Istherenotacause New Member

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    Interesting, but we seem to both agree since at this time only 2 have voted.

    I have heard some refer to the O.T. saints as the Firstfruits of the ressurrection being the "wife' of the Father, and those saved during the New Testament Dispensation are the Bride of Christ, but wouldn't that mean two separate individuals married to two separate wives?

    On that idiom, I'd have to say, no. Therefore the Bride of Christ is made up of all believers, any guests would have to be the angelic host.

    The the word "guests" needs to be clearly and completely defined from the Hebrew, not limited to a simple English definition.

    In His Holy Service,

    Brother Ricky
     
    #2 Istherenotacause, May 28, 2003
  3. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Pastor Bob, I'd be very interested in reading your sermon when you've finished it. I voted but have never really studied this and am not really sure my thoughts are right! However, I am in the majority on all my answers.

    Maybe you could post it in a few day? I do enjoy a good sermon!

    Thanks!
    Diane
     
    #3 dianetavegia, May 28, 2003
  4. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I have found that many people either have not studied this issue and do not have any conclusions other than what they been taught, or they have studied and are still unsure so they avoid the issue. There are certainly extreme viewpoints in this study as there are in most Bible doctrines.

    Again, I would ask that posters please post scriptural support for their position.
     
    #4 Pastor_Bob, May 28, 2003
  5. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    60% of you have agreed on who the Bride of Christ is, yet is there no one who can offer one verse in support?
     
    #5 Pastor_Bob, May 29, 2003
  6. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I find it a bit disheartening that this is the Theology Forum yet no one is willing to support their theological position with Scripture. I guess I’ll try one more time to get the ball rolling. I apologize for the length of the post.

    Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    Those speaking in vs. 7 are excluding themselves from the part of the bride. The expressions, “His WIFE;” “hath made HERSELF ready;” “to HER was granted;” “that SHE should be arrayed.” Each of these statements are exclusive and those speaking would not be considered as part of the wedding.

    The statement, “...his wife hath made herself ready,” this is obviously not talking about salvation. No one has ever been able to provide their own salvation. Neither is this talking about the Judgment Seat of Christ because Christ is the One that does the preparing in that Judgment.

    She (the bride) did something to prepare herself for the wedding. There is something for her to do.

    1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
    2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    But the chief preparation is the act of Christ.

    Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    Vs. 27, is not talking about sins of the flesh. Christ took care of all sins of the flesh on the cross permanently. This undoubtedly is referring to the church’s actions and relationship with Christ.
    1. No spot of idolatry.
    2. No wrinkle of false doctrines.
    3. No blemishes or un-holiness, meaning true submission to Christ.

    Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
    32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

    Vs. 32, “The mystery” is speaking of vs. 31, “…and they two shall be one flesh.” His teaching here is the union of Christ and the church.

    II Cor. 11:2, “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

    Notice the words “chaste virgin.” This cannot be talking about “sinless perfection.” We don’t attain that here on earth. It is talking about purity in our practice, a “chaste virgin” in the following of the teaching and commands of Christ to the New Testament church.

    “Chaste virgin” is one who has not been soiled or contaminated by denominationalism. It is one who has not been partaker of false religion, doctrines of men, and doctrines of the flesh.

    When we connect this with vs. 8 we see it more clearly. The righteousness in vs. 8 is speaking of “righteous deeds.” It is referring to those deeds, done in the body that passed the trial by fire at the Judgment Seat of Christ. (II Cor 5:10) She prepared herself or “made herself ready” by the things she has already done, or what she did on the earth:
    · The way she followed the New Testament doctrine.
    · The non-partaking in the false church.
    · The abstinence of soiling herself with the teachings and doctrines of the Great Whore in Revelation 17.

    The Bride, in my opinion, is none other than the true New Testament Church . This does not include all of the saved during the period of Grace or the Church Age. A large number of the present Christianity are not practicing New Testament theology. The same pattern that Jesus established during His earthly ministry must be followed for New Testament theology to be real and true. To stray away from this is to exclude yourself from the bride.

    I am not talking about what is known as the invisible church. I do not believe in an invisible church. Nothing about Christ is invisible. He is visible in all things. If you mean by “invisible church,” the family of God, then I can identify with that, but there is no such animal as a Universal or Invisible Church.

    Who are the guests at the wedding?
    Rev. 19:9, And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are thy which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

    Remember, the bride is not invited. If there is no bride, there is no wedding. So, the invitation is extended to someone other than the bride. The invited are all who are not the bride: all the Old Testament saints, all the New Testament saints that do not make up the bride, and those saved during the Tribulation Period. This will include those who are born again, but failed to follow the true teachings of the New Testament. Many of these will be Baptist by name.

    The Bible makes it clear in Daniel 12:1-3 & Isaiah 26:19-21 that the Old Testament saints will not be resurrected until the Second Coming of Christ. This is after the marriage of the Lamb. So, Old Testament saints are not included in the bride; they are guests at the wedding.

    Revelation 20:4-6 makes it equally clear that those saved during the Tribulation Period will not be resurrected until that time also. So again, they are not included in the bride; they are guests.

    Many of you may not agree with this position. I offer you the opportunity to show from Scripture what you do believe.
     
    #6 Pastor_Bob, May 29, 2003
  7. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Seems to have already happened.
    for the marriage of the Lamb is come
     
    #7 Grasshopper, May 29, 2003
  8. truthsayer

    truthsayer New Member

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    Very interesting food for thought Pastor Bob.
    Could you please elaborate on," Many of these will be baptist by name"
    Thanks
     
    #8 truthsayer, May 29, 2003
  9. Caretaker

    Caretaker <img src= /drew.gif>

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    John 3:
    28: Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
    29: He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
    30: He must increase, but I must decrease.


    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
    #9 Caretaker, May 29, 2003
  10. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    There are those, whom I consider as extreme, that believe that only the Baptist Church will make up the Bride of Christ. At last check, there was one vote that indicated this in the poll.

    Some term this view as a “Baptist Bride” position, or label those holding it as a “Baptist Brider.” I do not consider myself as such.

    I do, however, believe that the fundamental Baptist Churches of today are the few that are teaching the true New Testament doctrine. I’m quite sure that there are those who are practicing New Testament teachings in purity, who do not call themselves Baptists. I can accept that as well.

    I hope that answers your question.
     
    #10 Pastor_Bob, May 30, 2003
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Jude 14NASB adds strength to that position:
    The picture of Jesus coming from heaven (AFTER the marriage supper at the end of the tribulation) with his "holy ones".

    The adjective "holy" does not have a noun - typical in Greek. So the AV added "saints", since they most certainly are holy ones. The modern versions simply say holy "ones".

    Short Greek lesson. The gender of the adjective MUST agree with the gender of the noun. If the noun is simply "understood" (not given in the sentence) then it should be a noun that will "fit" the adjective. [Gender is a form of the word, nothing to do with sex folks!]

    Holy "ones" (understood) is feminine and should have a feminine noun. "Brides" would work there, Pastor Bob. Or "churches" - both feminine words.
     
    #11 Dr. Bob, May 30, 2003
  12. Tim too

    Tim too New Member

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    Jerusalem is also reffered to as the bride.

    9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,... Revelation 21:9&10 KJS

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
    #12 Tim too, May 30, 2003
  13. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Question: Who do you believe the Bible teaches will be the Bride of Christ?

    My answered: ALL those who have been saved from Adam until the Marriage of the Lamb.

    Question: Who do you believe the 'guests' will be at the wedding?

    My answered: I do NOT believe there will be any 'guests'; ALL in attendance will be the Bride.

    You say,

     
    #13 DeafPosttrib, May 30, 2003
  14. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I never once stated that saved people are not the children of God. You seem to confuse the family of God with the Bride of Christ. They are two different groups of people. All those in the Bride are in the family, but not all those in the family are the Bride.

    Look at Gen. 24. Here Abraham sent Eliezer, his servant, to choose a bride for Isaac. He was to go to Abraham’s brother, Nahor’s family. He chose Rebekah. He did not choose the whole family, just Rebekah. The Lamb’s bride is chosen from the family, but not the whole family.

    When a person gets saved they become a member of the family of God. That does not place them in the Bride of Christ.

    What they do after salvation determines their position in the Wedding of the Lamb. They are either a part of the Bride, or they are guests at the wedding. “. ..his wife hath made herself ready.”

    Just because Rebekah was a member of Abraham’s family did not qualify her for the bride of Isaac. She made herself ready. Vs. 15—19. She was a member of Abraham’s family, the daughter of Nahor, Abraham’s brother. She had other sisters, but only Rebekah was chosen.

    Look at the family’s response to the choosing of Rebekah, Vs. 60. The family of God will rejoice as well when the Bridegroom takes His Bride.

    Absolutely not! I made it clear that there is no loss of salvation. The Bride is arrayed in the righteousness of the saints. That is the righteous works that have stood the test of fire at the Judgement Seat of Christ. They are wearing the wedding garment of their own making.

    Those who are not in the Bride are those who are saved but have not kept themselves for the Bridegroom. They are saved, "so as by fire." I Cor. 3:15

    Again, you are confusing salvation with acceptance into the Bride of Christ. They are not the same. Nowhere in the Word of God does it teach that they are.

    There is no question that OT saints are in heaven. Again, that is not the point. The point is, who makes up the Bride? I believe they are the guests at the wedding. They are the family that is rejoicing because the Lamb has taken His bride.

    That they are God's people, I agree. That they are all the Bride, I disagree.

    There should be no saints on earth at the beginning of the Tribulation Period. All would have been taken in the rapture. I agree that people will be saved during the Tribulation, but these have missed the wedding. See Jesus' parable about the wise and foolish virgins in Mat. 25. All of the virgins got oil in their lamps (a picture of the Holy Spirit and salvation), but 5 of them missed the wedding. 5 of them properly prepared for the wedding therefore, they went with the Bridegroom.

    It is not clear; in fact, it is a wrong conclusion on your part. True, all saints will dwell together in the New Jerusalem, but that has nothing to do with the Bride of Christ.

    I agree

    I disagree.

    I think so too.
     
    #14 Pastor_Bob, May 30, 2003
  15. postrib

    postrib New Member

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    I believe that we can be the bride and the guests, for while the bride is one, she is made up of many members (1 Corinthians 12:12), which were all invited by the preaching of the gospel to become part of the body of Christ, though some believers will be subsequently rejected because of unrepentant unrighteousness (Matthew 22:2-14; Revelation 16:15, 19:8; Matthew 25:26, 30; Matthew 7:21).


    Note that there are no longer any OT saints, for now all saints of all past ages are part of the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:4-5), which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32), for now all saints of all past ages believe in Christ's finished work on the cross (Ephesians 4:8-10; 1 Peter 3:18-19; 1 Peter 4:6), which is our salvation (Matthew 26:28), and now all believers of all past ages are after Pentecost.

    Note that no scripture says that there can be anyone saved outside of the body of Christ, for "there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    Note that no one at any time can be eternally saved without believing in Jesus and his finished work on the cross: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6); "By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10, 12).

    This is why Jesus had to bring the New Covenant to the saints who died before the cross; otherwise, their sins could never have been forgiven: "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28); "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead" (1 Peter 4:6).

    I believe that after the resurrection Christ went and preached the completion of the gospel to the former OT (now NT) believers in the bosom of Abraham (1 Peter 3:18-19; 1 Peter 4:6), and that he led them up into heaven with him when he ascended (Ephesians 4:8-10).

    "Being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:18-19); "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead" (1 Peter 4:6); "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)" (Ephesians 4:8-10).


    Note that everyone in the body of Christ is part of the bride of Christ, "for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Ephesians 5:30-32). Note that Christ doesn't marry part of his body, but his entire body, the church. Note that no verse in the Bible distinguishes between the body of Christ and the bride of Christ, or says that the bride of Christ is only part of the body of Christ.


    Does it show anyone repenting during the tribulation? Doesn't it say that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)? Is it possible all the Christians we see in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) are us, saved before the tribulation began? Does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation?

    Could giving unbelievers the idea of a 2nd chance be dangerous? After hearing the ideas of a pre-trib rapture and a 2nd chance, could unbelievers get complacent and say "Oh, when I see a pre-trib rapture happen then I'll repent and believe; I've got a 2nd chance, right?"

    Should we instead warn them? "The Bible doesn't promise that there will be a rapture before the tribulation. And in the great tribulation God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."

    Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the bride (Ephesians 5:30-32).


    Does the Bible promise us a resurrection before the 2nd coming?

    Doesn't the Bible preclude that our resurrection be before the 2nd coming because it says that the resurrection and changing of all Christians into their immortal bodies will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23), and that "the first resurrection" will also include all of us Christians who will die in the tribulation (Revelation 20:4-5)?

    Wouldn't the pre-trib resurrection doctrine require that 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52 on the one hand, and Revelation 20:4-5 on the other, be referring to two different bodies of Christians regarding two different comings of Christ, thus making the one body of Christ two bodies (Ephesians 4:4-5), the 2nd coming a 3rd coming (Hebrews 9:28), the last trumpet the 9th from last (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 8:6; Matthew 24:31), and the 1st resurrection the 2nd (Revelation 20:4-6), so that it would not really make sense of scripture?


    Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.

    After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

    Note that Paul says that at the 2nd coming "the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed... when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:52-54), for death will have been swallowed up in victory for all of us believers; and the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with this same 2nd coming and resurrection in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory... And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him" (Isaiah 25:8-9).

    In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb shown to be at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)?


    Does any scripture promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?


    In the parable of the 10 virgins, isn't the door closed at Jesus' coming (Matthew 25:10, compare Luke 13:24-28), which Jesus had just finished saying would be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31)? Does the Bible teach a 3rd coming?

    Won't Christians either be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming or be lost, as the 5 foolish virgins are lost (Matthew 25:10-12; compare Luke 13:23-28)?

    "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not" (Matthew 25:10-12); "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them. Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out" (Luke 13:23-28).


    http://geocities.com/postrib
     
    #15 postrib, May 31, 2003
  16. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    OT saints are a part of the body of Christ, no question. Eph 5:30-32 is not talking about the bride, it's talking about the church. The bride is taken from the church and presented to Christ as a chaste virgin without spot or blemish. vs. 26,27

    I agree

    I agree. Nothing I've said implies anything different.

    This is not what this passage is talking about. Again, it is referring to the church, not the bride.

    Who are the "much people" in Revelation 19:1? They are obviously not the bride. They are rejoicing because the bride is getting married. They used terms like "his wife," and "made herself ready." They are not talking about themselves; they are speaking of the bride.

    Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (KJV)

    This is speaking of those who had an opportunity to be saved prior to the rapture of the church. During the Tribulation, they will have no more opportunity to be saved, "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved" II Thess. 2:10. Therefore God will send them a strong delusion and they will believe a lie.

    You'll not find that taught anywhere in the Bible. In fact, you'll find the contrary.
    Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (KJV)
    1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (KJV)

    I believe the verses above declare just that, but also: 2 Thess 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    (KJV)

    I believe these verses teach that the Holy Spirit is taken away when all Christians are raptured (vs. 1 by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him) and then the anti-christ is revealed to begin the Tribulation.

    As I stated above, there will be no second chance. If they've heard the truth and rejected the truth, they have no second chance.

    1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV)

    This is definitely a resurrection, and it is before the 2nd coming. Notice that Jesus does not come back to earth, but rather we "meet the Lord in the air."

    When the trumpet sounds to raise the dead, the word "last" here does not imply that any trumpet will have sounded before at the resurrection, but is a word denoting that this is the consummation or close of things; it will end the economy of this world; it will be connected with the last state of things.

    They are indeed two different groups of people. The first group is saved during the NT church age; the second is saved during the Tribulation. The first "coming" of Christ is the rapture, the second coming is when He comes to set up His earthly reign.

    The Bible most clearly does show when and where this event takes place. The time of the marriage is between the rapture and the 2nd coming. Prior to the rapture, the church is still anticipating the marriage. According to Rev 19:7, this marriage has already taken place when we come to the 2nd coming. The phrase, "the marriage of the Lamb is come" is spoken before the Lord departs for earth in vss 11-14.

    Because this event follows the Judgement Seat of Christ, which certainly occurs in heaven, we can safely conclude that the wedding takes place in heaven also.

    He is there. Vs. 7 tell us they are giving Him honor. Who are they talking about? The Bride is ready and the marriage is consumated.

    I believe this "tribulation" is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus is gathering His saints so that He might destroy the wicked along with the anti-christ. This immediately preceeds the 2nd coming. The raptured saints come with Him while he sends the angels to gather His saints on this earth, that is, those saved who are still alive at the end of the tribulation.

    I do not believe this parable is speaking specifically about salvation, although we can make that application as I did in a previous post. The parable is concerning Christ and His bride. The wise virgins properly made themselves ready for the Bridegroom, the foolish virgins did not.

    I do not make a practice of basing doctrines on parables, but they can be helpful to help understand doctrines already established in the Word of God.
     
    #16 Pastor_Bob, May 31, 2003
  17. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    I will post it tomorrow night. Because I have to work tonight - 3rd shift.

    I will continue to discuss with you more about it tomorrow night.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
    #17 DeafPosttrib, May 31, 2003
  18. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    I'm back.

    On 1 Cor. 3:15. You discuss on Judgment seat of Christ, you believe that any Christians who will suffering loss by the fire, mean anyone will NOT be part of the Bride. The problem is, Paul does not saying that they will NOT be part of the Bride when anyone who will loss by the fire in the context of 1 Cor. 3:12-15. Paul was talking about our works, he was not talking about our salvation, and Bride. He was talking about our works, I believe many Christians of this generation might not receive reward from the result of judgment, but yet all of them are Christ's Bride.

    You say,

     
    #18 DeafPosttrib, Jun 3, 2003
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Wrath is for unbelievers only.

    Wrath is to send all unbelievers to hell, because they reject Jesus Christ - John 3:36.

    The book of Revelation tells us, the wrath of God pour upon all unbelievers only who received the mark of the beast, and reject Christ.

    You will not see anywhere in the book of Revelation saying the wrath of God will pour upon a single saint.

    Pretribulational teaches on 2 Thess 2:6-7 the restrainer is Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit will leave earth as church will be rapture, then the Antichrist revealed.

    But, not what Apostle Paul was talking about.

    Notice the context of 'he' of 2 Thess 2:7 is Antichrist starts with verse 3 - 'man of sin'.

    The context of 2 Thess 2:3-8 does not focus on Holy Spirit, it focus on Antichrist only.

    2 Thess 2:6 tells us, Antichrist cannot revealed, because it is not his time yet. God knows when the time is right, He shall allow Antichrist to be revealed.

    2 Thess 2:7 tells us, Antichrist is now holding back from being to be revealed. God have power to hold Antichrist from being to be revealed. God have authority what He tells yes or no.

    When the time come arrived, God will allow Antichrist to be revealed.

    2 Thess 2:7 tells us, that he shall be out of the way, means, Antichrist shall be removal from the midst(way) then, he shall be revealed - 2 Thess 2:8.

    I do not see Rapture in 2 Thess 2:7. I do not see the removal of Holy Spirit in 2 Thess 2:7. I can see 2 Thess 2:7 is talking about Antichrist shall be removal from the midst(mystery -2 Thess 2:7a) then, he shall be revealed - 2 Thess 2:8.

    I want to discuss with you on 2 Thess 2:1-4.

    2 Thess 2:1 - Why does Paul beseeches to them about the coming of the Lord? Verse 2 and 3 answered the reason of beseech of verse 1.

    Verse 1 - Paul beseeches them about the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him.

    I agree with pretribbers saying verse 1 is rapture. Yes that is correct. Rapture does not separate from the coming.

    Verse 2 - Paul warned to them, not let anyone to be panic, high hope, worry, fear about hear any rumours that the day of Christ is already arrived.

    Verse 3 - Paul told them, do not let anyone to deceive them of any false rumours or teaching about the timing of Christ's return. Paul told them, that the gathering together/day of Christ shall NOT come till we shall see falling away(apostasy) first, and the revealed of Antichrist.

    2 Thess 2:3 is very clear telling us, that the gathering together/day of Christ shall NOT come till we shall see apostasy first, and the revealed of Antichrist.

    We already see apostasy everywhere today, it already begin long time ago. We will SEE Antichrist to be revealed.

    Rapture cannot come till we will face Antichrist revealed first. So, therefore, Antichrist will persecute against us - Rev. 13:7, 10.

    2 Thess 2:3 is opposite of pretribulational doctrine of imminency rapture.

    Antichrist shall be destroyed at the coming of the Lord - 2 Thess 2:8.

    You say

    The Bible does not agree with you.

    Many people are heart hardened while hear the gospel, they stubborn it. But, God is not give up on them. Their life is not finish yet. They still have another chnace to become saved BEFORE they die. Once after they die, there is NO chance for them to have salvation after they die.

    Second, they still have chance to have salvation during Antichrist's reign. But their oppurnity of salvation will be over when Christ ONCE come to earth at Second Advent. Unbelievers shall be taken away to punish send them to fire at the Second Advent.


    1 Thess 4:15-17 does not say "pretrib" rapture. The context of 1 Thess 4:13-18 focus on dead Christians what will happen to them. Paul tells us, that we do not sorrow about them, because we shall see them again, when Christ comes, they shall be resurrection from the dead that would be at the Second Advent.

    Pretribbers use Rev. 4:1 is Rapture.

    But, Rev. 4:1 does not saying, Christ descend out of heaven. Neither it saying 'resurrection'. Neither it saying about Second Advent. Rev. 4:1-2 talk about John's experince of his revelation, that he was filled with the Holy Spirit. He was asked by angel to come up there same with Rev. 17:1; and Rev. 21:9. Both Rev. 17:1 and 21:9 have do nothing with rapture. Both same with Rev. 4:1.

    'Resurrection' does not appear TILL Rev. 20:4-5. Rev. 20:4-5 is clearly prove us, that the saints shall face Antichrist first BEFORE resurrection occurs.

    Resurrection cannot occur yet till Christians shall face Antichrist first - Rev. 20:4-5.

    On Matt 24:29-31...


    Matt 24:29 is very clear telling us, Christ cannot come till AFTER tribulation.

    That is posttribulational coming!

    None anywhere verse in Matthew 24 saying Christ shall come before Tribulation.

    Matt 24:29-31 clearly tell us, that Christ shall come AFTER tribulation, the trumpet shall be sound, and the angels will gathering all saints gathering together is Rapture.

    Matt 24:31 same with 1 Thess 4:15-17 and 1 Cor. 15:51-54 because of 'trumpet' & 'gathering'.

    Gathering together cannot separate from Coming. Matt 24:30 same with 2 Thess 2:1.

    Before I close this post of conclusion.

    I want to discuss with you about the Body of Christ.

    Because you opened topic about the Bride of Christ. You seems divided among groups on ONE Bride of Christ. The Bible does not teach it.

    I would like to give the illustration on the Body of Christ.

    When the time arrives, Jesus gets up from the throne. The 'Old Testament' saints and 'New Testament' saints look at Jesus getting up from the throne, they are excite for Jesus about to leave heaven. They are eager to follow Christ to out of heaven. The reason is, both are eager to receive new body at resurrection. But, Christ stopped them. He says to 'Old Testament' saints, "Your time is not yet, you have to wait for next 7 years to receive your new body." The 'Old Testament' saints say to Him, "NOT FAIR!! and they continue say to Him, "Look at New Testament saints, they will recieve their body, but not us, that is not fair!"

    'New Testament' saints follow Christ out of heaven, they return back to their graves, and receive new body, then return to cloud to meet Christ.

    Then, 'Church' saints are alive and remain are caught up to meet Christ in the air. Both 'Resurrection New Testament' saints and 'Alived Church' saints follow Christ return to heaven.

    When 'Resurrection New Testament' saints and 'Alived Church' saints arrive in the heaven, the 'Old Testament' saints look at them. 'O.T.' saints say to two groups, "NOT FAIR!!.

    Because, 'O.T.' saints do not have new body yet, they are remain soul.

    Then shortly later, during tribulation period. Thousands of 'Tribulation' saints are being killed for refuse worship or received the mark of the beast. 'Trib' saints die, their soul go to heaven.

    When, 'Trib' saints arrive in the heaven. 'Trib' saints look at three different groups - 'O.T.' saints, 'Resurrection N.T.' saints and 'Alived Church' saints. 'Trib' saints say to 'Resurrection N.T.' saints & 'Alive Church' saints, "NOT FAIR!!.

    Both 'O.T.' saints and 'Trib' saints are jealous at 'N.T.' saints, because both do not have new body yet, they remain soul. They have to wait for the next 7 years.

    My question is, IS THERE schism or divsion in the heaven among God's family as the Body of Christ????

    Please think about it.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
    #19 DeafPosttrib, Jun 3, 2003
  20. postrib

    postrib New Member

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    Note again that in Ephesians 5:31-32 Paul says that the "man" is Christ and "his wife" is the church, the body, "for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Ephesians 5:30-32). Note again that Christ doesn't marry part of his body, but his entire body, the church. Note again that no verse in the Bible distinguishes between the body of Christ and the wife of Christ, or says that the wife of Christ is only part of the body of Christ.


    The multitude in the third heaven referring to the "servants" and to the "wife" and to the "saints" of the Lord in Revelation 19:1-8 could be the same 100,000,000 angels seen in the third heaven in Revelation 5:11-12.


    Note that it doesn't show the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) getting saved during the tribulation. It's possible they were saved before the tribulation began. I believe they will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).


    Could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) still be delivered from the wrath to come because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation? I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

    I think it's important to make this distinction because many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming God for everything bad that happens to them in the tribulation; they're going to be saying that God is the one causing all of their suffering, when in reality it will be Satan, evil men, and natural disasters that are causing it.

    Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from God, to get us to believe that God is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from God, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

    In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive? "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).


    I don't believe that the restrainer of the Antichrist who is taken away (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the Holy Spirit because many of us Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist's rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

    I believe if Satan can be restrained by an angel (Revelation 20:1-3), then a man (the Antichrist) can be restrained by an angel also.


    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul says that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), and that Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). We Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

    I believe that Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31, which says all these will occur "after the tribulation." I don't believe that the scriptures teach a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.


    Could we be caught up to meet the Lord coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth?

    "The Son of man coming in the clouds...
    with a great sound of a trumpet,
    and they shall gather together his elect"
    (Matthew 24:30-31).

    "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
    with the trump of God...
    shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
    (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

    Do the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
    and two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
    and two different raptures of the church?

    Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, does this require that it be referring to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven? Isn't it true that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either? Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

    Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show Jesus returning to heaven? Doesn't Acts 1:11 say Jesus will "come" just as he left? Will he come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, even thought he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again? Just as he went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds and "into heaven" (Acts 1:11), couldn't he come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4)? Does the Bible teach a 3rd coming of Jesus?


    While I believe the church began in Acts 2, note that the Bible doesn't refer to a "church age," but instead says that the church will continue "throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 3:21). Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23) and the bride (Ephesians 5:30-32).


    I believe an important purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

    This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married in the clouds, we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14), Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to fight him (Revelation 19:19), he will defeat them completely (Revelation 19:20) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4), after which we will have the supper (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).


    Note that the Bible doesn't show the judging or rewarding of any part of the church before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

    Note that the time to reward the saints doesn't come until after the 7th trumpet has sounded (Revelation 11:15, 18); we will be judged and rewarded at the 2nd coming: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come" (1 Corinthians 4:5); "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:1); "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12).

    After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged: "Then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:26-27); "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me" (Psalm 50:4-5).


    http://geocities.com/postrib
     
    #20 postrib, Jun 7, 2003
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