Mary Worshipers

[mojoala]

Originally Posted by Eric B
Here is a verse, which I have never seen cited in this debate, but it suddenly dawned on me how pertinent it is:
Luke 11:27, 28: And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare you, and the breast which you have sucked.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Someone comes thinking that His mother is worthy of special veneration, and He quickly deflects the focus to the Word of God. So she may be blessed, but Jesus Himself tells us that that is not our concern, but rather God's.

In most translations v28 goes something like "rather, blessed are ..." however in this on it says "but even more blessed" is kind of misleading.

Jesus was not putting His mother down but rather raising up those who actually obey Him versus those who hear but dont follow up with actions. Its a really good verse against the idea of faith alone.

In this same book in Luke1:48 Mary says "For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed" if the protestant wants to say Mary was not a part of "post crucifixion worship" then the verse is contradicted because NOT even one generation would call Her blessed.

Also in Acts 1:14 it says Mary gathered with the Apostles and believers in prayer.

 

[mojoala]

Originally Posted by Eric B
Here is a verse, which I have never seen cited in this debate, but it suddenly dawned on me how pertinent it is:
Luke 11:27, 28: And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare you, and the breast which you have sucked.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Someone comes thinking that His mother is worthy of special veneration, and He quickly deflects the focus to the Word of God. So she may be blessed, but Jesus Himself tells us that that is not our concern, but rather God's.

To many non-Catholic minds, the thought of respecting Mary, Angels, and Saints puts down God, their creator. Doesn't quite add up.

Actually, it does add up in quite a literal sense. Many non-Catholics consider glory and respect to be finite and limited quantities. According to this thinking, if you give glory to somebody, it is because you have taken it away from somebody else. In physics, mass and energy are called "conserved quantities" because they behave this way; these non-Catholics consider glory and respect to be "conserved quantities" as well.

 

[mojoala]

Originally Posted by Eric B
Here is a verse, which I have never seen cited in this debate, but it suddenly dawned on me how pertinent it is:
Luke 11:27, 28: And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare you, and the breast which you have sucked.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Someone comes thinking that His mother is worthy of special veneration, and He quickly deflects the focus to the Word of God. So she may be blessed, but Jesus Himself tells us that that is not our concern, but rather God's.

According to this thinking, if you give glory to somebody, it is because you have taken it away from somebody else.

Perhaps an analogy would help them to understand? If I give knowledge to you, I do not decrease in knowledge although knowledge is given; overall knowledge increases without anyone losing knowledge. If I have another child, I don't love my other children less - rather, my love grows. If we love Mary, it does not take away from our love of Jesus any more than our love for our natural mothers takes away our love from our natural brothers. We're a family in Christ - we are called to love each other, and this does not make God jealous any more than it would make a father jealous to see that his children love each other. It's quite silly, when you really think about it.

I would think the family context would help understanding. What do you think?

 

[mojoala]

Originally Posted by Eric B
Here is a verse, which I have never seen cited in this debate, but it suddenly dawned on me how pertinent it is:
Luke 11:27, 28: And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare you, and the breast which you have sucked.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Someone comes thinking that His mother is worthy of special veneration, and He quickly deflects the focus to the Word of God. So she may be blessed, but Jesus Himself tells us that that is not our concern, but rather God's.

27 As he was speaking, a woman in the crowd called out, "God bless your mother--the womb from which you came, and the breasts that nursed you!" 28 He replied, "But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice."


Also think Who heard the word of God and said "let it be done to me according to his will" If anyone put God's word into practice it was Mary

 

[mojoala]

She didn't just put it into practice - she put it into flesh!

 

[mojoala]

Regardless of what translation one uses "even more or rather", Christ isn't saying that Mary isn't blessed.

If one wants to push it in line with Prot thinking, Christ isn't even calling Himself blessed here.

 

[mojoala]

These verses are often used to try to refute the teaching of the Church that Jesus saw his mother as blessed, but they don't say that at all.

We have to understand both the culture which prompted such a remark by the woman and to whom it was addressed. The woman was not actually praising Mary but Jesus. She was saying, in effect, "How blessed must be the mother that gave birth to you and had the privilege of caring for you." You see who is really be praised here, with this understanding of her remarks? It's Jesus.

And what did Jesus reply? Modestly, he told her that those who hear the word of God and keep it are more blessed. In other words, all who do what the Father wills because they listen to him are blessed. Mary certainly did that, as did Jesus. And that is the basis on which he wanted himself to be praised and his Mother venerated/honored not merely on the fact that she bore him.

St. Elizabeth said much the same thing when she declared to Mary in Luke 1:45 "And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." Neither Jesus nor Elizabeth were negating Mary's motherhood, but rather they were exalting her faith.

 

[mojoala]

Here is a verse, which I have never seen cited in this debate, but it suddenly dawned on me how pertinent it is:
Luke 11:27, 28: And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare you, and the breast which you have sucked.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Someone comes thinking that His mother is worthy of special veneration, and He quickly deflects the focus to the Word of God. So she may be blessed, but Jesus Himself tells us that that is not our concern, but rather God's.

G3304
μενοῦνγε
menounge
men-oon'-geh
From G3303 and G3767 and G1065; so then at least: - nay but, yea doubtless (rather, verily).

Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

becomes

So then at least, blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[mojoala]

Jesus gave a minimum requirement

So then at least, blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.

Not only did mary hear the word of God and keep it. She did it. She acted upon it.

 

[mojoala]

Another point was missed:

Was it normal to refer to a woman by their parts as a womb and breasts at that time?

 

[mojoala]

Sorry but Mary declaring her meekness does not at all mean she didn't deserve the praise Elizabeth gave her. Jesus called himself "meek and humble of heart" but that doesn't mean that he isn't the very Son of God because of that.

Also, God will exalt whom he pleases and he pleased him to exalt Mary--for her faith and her faithfulness. We can't honor her too much because honoring her and adoring her are two different things. No Catholic would adore her as if she were God since we don't believe that she is.

And we can pray to her. Praying is not adoring or worshiping it is asking for prayers and aid. We believe that Mary is sitting at the right hand side of her Son in glory where she intercedes for us. And she can only do that because God has given her that position. Once again, God exalts whom he pleases and for his own reasons. If we are to judge the angels themselves, surely it is no stretch to believe that Mary is the Queen of the Angels and Saints in glory.

 

[mojoala]

While He ( Jesus ) was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!" But He said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the woird of God and obey it" ( Luke 11: 27-28)

In this English version, it may appear that Jesus is correcting the
woman who praises His Mother. However, the Greek word translated as rather can mean "no instead..." or it can mean "yes, and what is more...." Even if the first interpretation os preferred, Luke is saying that Mary is to be praised more because..

 

[mojoala]

COURTESY OF THE PERSON WHO WROTE THE OP.

Catholic Christians believe that all redeemed souls are "alive in Christ" and that we are all one in Christ. Because of the Lord's saving, redemptive grace, mortal "death" cannot separate us from the love of God, nor can it separate the members from the Body of Christ.

As a Scripture notes, from the words of Jesus to the Sadducees, "God is God of the Living, not of the Dead."


Elijah was taken to heaven, but Moses did indeed die. Yet, no matter what happened to his body, he was obviously made a very real, "living" heavenly presence who knew what was going on with Christ's earthly ministry and who did indeed appear on earth (with Elijah) to speak with Jesus about upcoming events.

First--we must ask ourselves HOW it is even proper for either Elijah or Moses (OT figures) to have even attained heaven BEFORE the salvific death/resurrection of Jesus.Before the coming of Christ, salvation (the attainment of heaven in the presence of God) was *not* attainable. yet God, who dwells outside the confines of time, as we know it, obviously made exceptions for Elijah and Moses (and Enoch) in light of the future saving grace of Jesus. How else would these sinful yet holy men have attained heaven before the Atonement wrought by Jesus?

Too, were Moses and Elijah able to appear with Christ at the Transfiguration due to their own power? Were they able to "know" matters concerning Christ's earthly ministry and passage into Jerusalem because of their own power? No. These abilities were all due to the power and dispensation of God.

Moreover, all true believers are "saints"--not just those who are "alive in Christ" in Heaven. Our brothers and sisters in Heaven surround us as a real "cloud of witnesses," watching us as we continue our race toward the ultimate destiny (Hebrews 11-- 12.1-2). Also, as noted in the Book of Revelation, the heavenly "elders," who are believed to represent the "tribes" of the faithful, offer our prayers personally up to God as "incense." (Revelation 5.8). The martyrs (very much alive in heaven) cry out for God's intervention upon the earth and its people before the Final Judgment (Revelation 6.9-11). In this latter passage, we see that God addresses the heavenly believers to be patient and wait "until their fellow brothers and sisters" on earth meet their destinies at the appointed time.

Much misunderstanding comes from the use of term "praying." ALL prayer is directed only to God. Fellow Christians (whether alive on earth or alive in heaven) can only intercede for us...pray with us. As Scripture notes, the intercession of a holy believer is very powerful (James 5.16-18). Here, "James" makes explicit mention of the power of Elijah's prayers--again assuring us that all believers are "alive" in Christ.

Even so, intercession of one believer on behalf of another is valid only in the ONE Mediator-ship of Jesus Christ. It is in Him alone that we can pray for each other.

The OT example comparing Catholics to the King conjuring a dead spirit through witchraft to foretell the future is a really lame comparison.

As for your comment about Mariolatry, I agree. But these can't be judged as representing all Catholics, just as the Protestants who commit "Bibliolatry" (and it happens) should not be considered representative of all Protestants.

Mary is a fellow Christian. Pure and simple. She is loved, respected, and honored as a human mother-figure to Christians (those with any sense). Yes, she was uniquely blessed and prepared with enormous grace for her ministry as Mother of Jesus, welcoming God's invitation to receive the Lord, so that all of us might be able to one day receive the Lord. The Holy Spirit inspired Elizabeth to cry out to Mary in a "loud voice" and call her "blessed" (Luke 1.42-43) and Mary herself prophecied that "all generations" of her children in faith would follow that example (Luke 1.48). Mary was more blessed because of her faith and keeping of God's word when she welcomed God's saving Son, than simply by having a physical baby (Luke 11.27-28).

I'm not a Roman Catholic. I am Eastern orthodox Catholic--which is a tradition of faith older than the Church of Rome. We are from the churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, etc.--the first churches. I don't believe in the infallible authority of the Roman Pope, nor that the Roman Catholic Church is the "one, true, church."

We don't "pray to the dead," because no one is dead in Christ Jesus and we believe our heavenly brothers and sisters are indeed a great "cloud of witnesses" united to us in the Resurrection of the Lord. Plus, it is wrong to worship anyone other than God--Father, Son & HS. Fellow Christains can be admired, loved, and appreciated, but that's it. Those that take it too far are making their experience of Christ counter-productive.

 

[Eric B]

First of all, I never claimed Jesus said His mother was not blessed.
But then, you go and all about turn the verse on its ear! Jesus was not correcting her misplaced praise of His mother, but instead, she was only praising Him (as the son of the blessed mother), and He actually deflected the praise TO His mother (as the one who kept the word, and puts it into practice)! What hermeneutical gymnastics!
Can you even find that in the CONTEXT? (And the other verses you gave are not in this context, and once again, no one here is denying she was blessed! But that is about it, as far as how we are taught by the NT to hold her).
Recall, the Jews were seeking a sign. They had all sorts of expectations of the Messiah that were "of the things of men, and not God". So Jesus is not telling her "YES, my mother is the one who keeps the Word the best; so look to her", but rather was instructing HER that instead of looking up to someone (other than Him), SHE should focus on practicing the Word of God, HERSELF. Then, she would be "blessed" herself. That's always the point in the Bible. We always get off of that track when we spend time focusing on another person. Why would He be confirming His mother's faithfulness when that is not even the point?

As for Rev.6:9-11, that could be figurative-- as "the voice of [Abel's] blood cries to me from the ground" (Gen.4:10) "The stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam of the timber shall answer it" (Hab.2:11). Notice here, God does not tell them "you'll have to keep floating around (or even sprinting, gliding, etc. around, as people have expressed it) or worshipping until your brethren join you up here; then you'll all get your bodies back". They are told rest a little while! Even if these souls are still in some way "alive", still, early Church writers such as Athenagoras sawtheir state as more like a sleep than anything else. Notice also, they are not before the altar, but "under" it!

"Cloud of witnesses", "witness" is "martus", which could be literally "a witness", but also means "a martyr". Hebrews mentions all of these examples of the faith, and they were mostly martyrs, and thus served as "witnesses". It did not mean that they were up there then watching the Christians.

 

[BobRyan]

As already pointed out.

The problem is that the AUTHORS you are discrediting are Catholic Popes!!

(Nothing like watching Catholics discredit Catholic popes -- the successors of Peter).

The big problem is that the RC myth of "excathedra" pronouncements was not made up until the late 1800's.

So that means you have little if nothing in the RCC endorsed "excathedra" as an explicit statement!!

No wonder so many Catholics in the dark ages formed armies to fight fellow Catholics. They could not determine the "official" from the non-official!!

 

[BobRyan]

Funny that NONE of this is in the Bible!!

-------------------------------------------
CoRedemptrix -

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of merciesgathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic
faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say thatshe with Christ redeemed mankind." - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia

"Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25





In a 1985 address at the Marian shrine in Guayaquil, Ecuador, Pope John Paul II said:

"Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes’ of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption....Crucified spiritually with her crucified son




(cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth’ (Lumen Gentium, 58)....In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity....In fact, Mary's role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) 318-319 [ORE 876:7]).
----------------------------------

 

[mojoala]

A reader writes:

On the Old testament i read that Elijah was ascend unto Heaven and on the Epistle of Jude 1:9 indicates that Moses was ascend too. But Jesus said that he no one was came into heaven except himself which came from Heaven...
I'm confused enough with that, could you explain.
​

Off the top of my head, I can see three possibilities here:

1. Elijah and others didn't ascend to the same heaven that Jesus came from but to somewhere else.
2. Jesus doesn't mean for his comment to apply to all humans of all periods, so it allows for at least a handful of exceptions like Enoch and Elijah.
3. Jesus is talking about his own particular kind of ascension, which is different than those of others. For example, he ascends under his own power (in cooperation with the Father and the Spirit), but others could not ascend under their own power. They had to be carried up to heaven by divine power, so they were "assumed" rather than "ascended."
4. Jesus is talking about people who would be in a position to tell Nicodemus (who he is talking to) about heavenly things. He thus is thinking of people who are now on earth that could tell Nicodemus about heavenly things. Since Enoch, Elijah, and Moses were not at that moment on earth, they could not tell Nicodemus about heaven.

Option #1 does not seem that likely to me because Scripture says they went to heaven (Hebrew, shmayim) and because prior to the Incarnation Jesus did not have a physical form and so, as the Second Person of the Trinity, it would be equally present in all heavenly realms since he is everywhere. He is still everywhere in his divinity, of course, but at least today he has a body, so if he is in "third heaven" (let's say) then we could say that he's present everywhere but also present in third heaven in a special way since he is present there both in his divinity and his humanity. But before the Incarnation he had no humanity and so it would not be as easy to say he was specially in one heaven rather than another.

Option #2 is possible since Jesus may have been speaking of a restricted group of people, such as those of his current day. Of those living in the third century when Jesus said this (John 3:13), none of them had ascended to heaven. Jesus thus might have meant, "Of everyone you have ever met and of everyone alive today, none of them has ascended to heaven."

Option #3 is also possible, though I think it's less likely than #2 or #4.

Option #4 seems more probable to me. If you look at verse 12, Jesus sets up his statement by saying:

12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13: No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
​

That question "how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" sets up "No one has ascended to heaven." If we try to relate these two, the logic might be: "How could you believe if I told you about heavenly things? Nobody here on earth right now has ascended to heaven, therefore you'd have no way of knowing about heaven and whether what I was saying was true. If you don't trust me when I tell you about earthly things, therefore, why would you believe if I told you about heavenly things? It's not like you could consult Shlomo down the street and ask him what he saw last time he was in heaven and thus confirm what I said. So far, I'm the only one who's come from there and only I can tell you about it. You'll either have to trust me or not."
The fact that Elijah and some others had gone there wouldn't affect this logic since they didn't come back to tell people what they saw.

It is understandable that you'd be confused, though. This is a confusing passage. Taken on its face, it makes it sound like Jesus has already ascended to heaven, when we know from elsewhere in the New Testament that he hasn't.

Hope this helps!

 

[BobRyan]

Actually it is pretty easy to just "make stuff up" as you point out --

But it is much better to just believe the Bible when it says that God took Enoch and "he did not die" as Heb 11 points out.

That Elijah was taken up to heaven as well.

And that the book quoted in Jude 9 "The Assumption of Moses" is correct in at least that detail as Clement of Alexandria and Oriegen point out.

Christ is the only one to DESCEND from heaven (even though Moses AND Elijah do it in Matt 17) because NEITHER of them "Came down out of heaven" as did Christ in John 6 refering to his birth as an "incarnation".

NEITHER did either of them ascend to heaven by their own merits - as did Christ. BOTH of them needed a Savior!

 

[BobRyan]

Some of our Catholic brethren have argued the point by saying "you never find us worshipping Mary".

For in support of that you will NEVER find anything like the Following praise and worship to God given to Mary.

Here it is phrased as WORSHIP to CHRIST with Mary “added” as IF this adoration and worship due to Christ can ALSO be given to Mary WITH Christ.

Quote:
"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymnwhich is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are GloryOh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." - Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950



In this form it would appear that all this praise, prayer, honor, veneration and glory applies to Mary and would even at that small level be a gross error.

So – we sure are glad that it is not out there.

However - to "correct" that quote so that it IS "exactly" what we DO find the Papal authority saying -- all we have to do is remove all the references to God - and replace them with references to Mary.!!!

Here is the correct quote – this is what Pope Pius XII “DID” write…

In this case we just TAKE CHRIST OUT of the incorrect quote above – so that it just references MARY ALONE!! Doing that gives us the EXACT teaching as the Pope actually taught it.

WORSHIP at Mary’s Altars

Quote:
"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymnwhich is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are GloryOh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." – Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950

 

[mojoala]

"Mary's maternal function towards mankind in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ but rather shows its efficacy," because "there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:5). This maternal role of Mary flows, according to God's good pleasure, "from the superabundance of the merits of Christ; it is founded on his mediation, absolutely depends on it and draws all its efficacy from it."(44). It is precisely in this sense that the episode at Cana in Galilee offers us a sort of first announcement of Mary's mediation, wholly oriented towards Christ and tending to the revelation of his salvific power.