Mary Worshipers

[Marcia]

"Mary's maternal function towards mankind in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ but rather shows its efficacy," because "there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:5). This maternal role of Mary flows, according to God's good pleasure, "from the superabundance of the merits of Christ; it is founded on his mediation, absolutely depends on it and draws all its efficacy from it."(44). It is precisely in this sense that the episode at Cana in Galilee offers us a sort of first announcement of Mary's mediation, wholly oriented towards Christ and tending to the revelation of his salvific power.

Whether or not one considers what Mary did at Cana as mediation, she is not mediating in heaven, and there is no scripture to support that she is. Rather, there are verses about Jesus only advocating for us in heaven.

Elijah and Moses appearing with Jesus have nothing to do with this. For one thing, they were not being worshipped or prayed to. For another, they appeared as witnesses of the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) to the Messiahship of Jesus.

Romans 1, starting at verse 18, warns strongly against turning from the Creator God to creation. Man is a creation. Woman is a creation. Mary is a creation. We are not to pay such honor to a creature, and certainly we are not taught to pray to Mary anywhere in the NT. She was Jesus' beloved mother and is a good role model for women, but she is not to be prayed to.

 

[mojoala]

We are not to pay such honor to a creature

No? Then why is there a commandment to honor thy father and thy mother?

You find the Marian Doctrine absolutely false and unscriptural.


I’ll give you 2 points. If you can answer them, I will give it to you.

First point.

Christ obeyed the Law perfectly.

Would you agree?

The Ten Commandments sum up that law.

Would you agree?

And the first commandment that deals with our fellow human relations is:

Honor your father and mother.

Would you agree?

So right when Christ fulfills the law, he fulfills that command “Honor your father and your mother”

The Hebrew word for Honor is kabad which means “Glorify”

The Hebrew word for "Honor" in the Honor thy father and thy mother is the same word for "Glorify" in 7 of the 8 instances in the Old Testament

So Christ honors, he bestows honor. He glorifies, He bestows glory upon his mom.

Would you agree?

Second Point.

We imitate Christ.

The RCC is not exalting Mary.

Jesus just beat the RCC to it.

The RCC is just echoing and imitating our Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

Since we are on a new page - I wanted to keep the mariolotry focus of the RCC clearly in view --

Some of our Catholic brethren have argued the point by saying "you never find us worshipping Mary".

For in support of that you will NEVER find anything like the Following praise and worship to God given to Mary.

Here it is phrased as WORSHIP to CHRIST with Mary “added” as IF this adoration and worship due to Christ can ALSO be given to Mary WITH Christ.

Quote:
"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymnwhich is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are GloryOh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." - Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950



In this form it would appear that all this praise, prayer, honor, veneration and glory applies to Mary and would even at that small level be a gross error.

So – we sure are glad that it is not out there.

However - to "correct" that quote so that it IS "exactly" what we DO find the Papal authority saying -- all we have to do is remove all the references to God - and replace them with references to Mary.!!!

Here is the correct quote – this is what Pope Pius XII “DID” write…

In this case we just TAKE CHRIST OUT of the incorrect quote above – so that it just references MARY ALONE!! Doing that gives us the EXACT teaching as the Pope actually taught it.

WORSHIP at Mary’s Altars

Quote:
"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymnwhich is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are GloryOh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." – Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950

 

[Marcia]

No? Then why is there a commandment to honor thy father and thy mother?

You find the Marian Doctrine absolutely false and unscriptural.


I’ll give you 2 points. If you can answer them, I will give it to you.

First point.

Christ obeyed the Law perfectly.

Would you agree?

The Ten Commandments sum up that law.

Would you agree?

And the first commandment that deals with our fellow human relations is:

Honor your father and mother.

Would you agree?

Notice my wording -- I did not say it is wrong to honor Mary. I said it is wrong to "pay such honor" to her; i.e., the specific type of honor that includes praying to her and considering her a mediator in heaven.

There is no biblical case for praying to Mary.

 

[mojoala]

Notice my wording -- I did not say it is wrong to honor Mary. I said it is wrong to "pay such honor" to her; i.e., the specific type of honor that includes praying to her and considering her a mediator in heaven.

There is no biblical case for praying to Mary.

This requires a new thread.

 

[mojoala]

Is not the person you ask to pray for you not mediating on your behalf.

Why ask another to pray for you? Is not praying to Jesus directly sufficient and is all you need?

 

[mojoala]

Bob Ryan, you are beating a dead horse. What a person said or did 56 years ago is not proof that ALL Catholics worship Mary.

How would you like it if was to be said that all Protestants buy prositutes because Jimmy Swaggart does? Or all Protestants are fake faith healers because Benny Hinn is. Or all Protestants are twisted and deranged like David Koresh.

Furthermore a quote is not Doctrine or Dogma. It is personal opinion and belief.

Please give us something new and stop beating the Pope Pius XII horse.

There is noting worse than beating a dead horse but beating the wrong dead horse.

Believe me, I have visited a lot Catholic Services and no one during a service worships Mary. The entire service is devoted to hearing God's word and communing with Jesus.

Maybe you should attend a service of theirs and see for yourself.

I notice you quote the same quote all over place in other posts. DEAD HORSE.

I have purchased a copy of the Textbook that the Catholic Church puts out called the Catechism. And have read it all. It contains all of the required Doctrines that a Catholic person is suppose to believe and all of the Disciplines that are to be followed. Not a one mentions worshipping Mary.

So please provide a quote and it's source claiming that "Mary is to be worshipped" like a GOD.

Please take not of the ORIGINAL POST:

FundieFighter put it rightly and intellectually:

Really: to "worship" Mary would require that the *intellect* makes a firm decision to believe that Mary is Divine or that she created the world. Even the most uneducated catholic, I believe, does not make that kind of intellectual decision. Thus, Mary cannot be worshipped unless a person claims, with full intellect, that she is divine. Case closed.

 

[mojoala]

BobRyan,

Flowery language is not worship. If they worship Mary, why do they deny it? What possible sense could it make to worship any god/being and then deny it? What could make a billion people worship Mary and at the same time deny that they worship Mary? What could possibly be the point of such behavior? This is the question you can never answer.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/jking/jkvirginvisit.html

It is clear the RCC encourages idolatry, in Mary's name.

 

[mojoala]

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/jking/jkvirginvisit.html

It is clear the RCC encourages idolatry, in Mary's name.

Private websites do not indicate Doctrine. What individuals post and claim is just that Individual.

Concerning Idolatry please refer to the original post:

Also, if Protestants want to bully Catholics for having sacred artwork, then they had best be prepared to throw their Bibles into the garbage cans. Why? Because every single letter, on every single page, in every single Bible in the world, is an IMAGE. It's created "material" of ink, made by human beings. *Every* letter. Do these letter-images convey truth and inspiration? Yes. Just as sacred art does. Protestants should also be ready to throw-out all of their family photo-albums and cherished "films." All are images

.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Denial is a poor debate tactic.


What would you say is happening ? Google it, the Virgin of Zapopan is a devastating example, and the RCC should be ashamed of it, instead of condoning it.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

And when yer done 'splainin' Zapopan, look up the Virgin of Guadalupe, & other S.A. cities. Why does the RCC charge people to come bow in front of these dolls ? Why were bascillicas built to house these formed pieces of china ?

And then you can post up examples of people praying to their photo albums, and hoping they protect them from floods.

 

[Marcia]

Is not the person you ask to pray for you not mediating on your behalf.

Why ask another to pray for you? Is not praying to Jesus directly sufficient and is all you need?

I do not ask dead people to mediate for me because that would involve praying to them instead of to God.

Praying to God is sufficient, but asking people who are alive to pray for me as well glorifies God and humbles us. Paul consistently asked the churches to pray for him, so it is biblical. Prayer is not done to get what we want - but to align ourselves with God's will and make ourselves receptive to his answer and his way of doing whatever he is going to do about the situation.

 

[Jim1999]

There are obvious pockets of mariolatry around he world, but it is not the official Catholic doctrine. Some of these beliefs are carry-overs from when the church of Rome literally believed, "Keep the people poor and ignorant, and under control" This worked greatly in South America, Mexico and such countries. It once worked in Quebec, Canada, so much that we had Baptist preachers jailed in the fifties for passing out tracts. It doesn't happen everywhere to-day.

I am not supporting the church of Rome by any stretch of imagination, but I think fairness is in order. Many changes have been made over the years, just not as fast as some of us would hope.

Cheers,

Jim

Perhaps the writer of Luke was in error when he recorded the words of Elizabeth:
"blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb...." Lk 1:42f

 

[Bro. Curtis]

But Jim, the Pope had a perfect chance to tell the Mexican people the truth, and instead chose to be seen as a devotee. Also, whomever was pope in 1954 is the guy who dedicated the building to house it. (I pulled it out of a Newsweek article, that I could never find now)

 

[mojoala]

It seems this dribble has been posted as well in other places and here is a good defense of it.

Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty

This same poetry is found in the language of countless 19th century poets, too. . .do we suspect them of diefying their subjects? The language of love is beyond words. . .we do our best. Some do better than others. That's not worship.

and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother

As she is the Mother of our Lord and our Mother given to us by our Lord on the Cross, we look to her as children look to a mother. As children, when we were scared did we not go to our earthly mothers with our fears? Did we not throw ourselvs into our mother's arms? Did we not beg her protection? Did we not have faith that she could help us? In doing all this, did that somehow make her a god to us? Of course not. This is simply how children look to a mother. That's not worship.

....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature

This is very simply adoration and praise of our Lord and God. We notice in our Mother the "peerless richness" of what God has done in her. We acknowledge that even with all her gifts, she is still but a creature. We marvel at the goodness of God in his creation of our Blessed Mother. That's not worship.

from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

Again, we are recognized the created being of our Blessed Mother. We recognize that though she is crowned Queen, it is not a self-proclaimed or self-attained position. "He" crowned her. There is a definite hierarchy implicit in such language. We recognize the special position of grace and honor God has given the Mother He chose from all eternity to bring forth the Son. That's not worship.

Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume.

We are all meant, created, intended to be fountains of faith for each other--that's our call as Christians. Here we are simply recognizing the crystalline example of faith in our Mother. We honor her for her example and her faithfulness. In poetic language, we are simply expressing our deepest desire to follow her example. That's not worship.

Oh Conqueress of evil and death

See Genesis and Revelation. That's prophecy, that's not worship.

inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell.

We are asking of our Blessed Mother the very thing that we expect of our pastors and religious. We are asking for her to "inspire" us. We are asking our Mother to teach us. We are asking her to protect us with her instruction. We are asking for her guidance and love. That's not worship.

Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you.

Echoing the greeting of the angel Gabriel, we address our Mother. We ask her to hear us as children. We celebrate her. My mom, here on earth, is beloved of God. I ask my mom to listen to me. . .to pray for me. . .to teach me. . .to love me. I celebrate her on Mother's Day and on her birthday. That's not worship.

Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble.

We're asking her to do the job of a mother. That's not worship.

Quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church.

We're asking her to do the job of a Christian. That's not worship.

In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...

We recognize her special place in God's kingdom. We recognize that through her Son, Jesus Christ, we have been made "brothers." We are children of the same Father. We have been given a Mother. That's not worship.

Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you,

We are asking for our Mother's help. We bring her our needs. We have faith in her ability to use the gifts she's been given to meet our needs. That's not worship.

we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars.

Is not the altar of God, the table of his family? Do we not all share in the sacrifices of our Savior, Jesus Christ? Would this be any less for His Blessed Mother? As Christians, do we doubt that any altar of the Blessed Mother's is wholly dedicated to the worship of her Creator and Son?

You are beautiful Oh Mary.

My husband tells me I'm beautiful. That's not worship.

You are GloryOh Mary.

As the tabernacle of the Lord, our Blessed Mother is filled with the Glory of God. To recognize God's movement in her is not worship.

You are the joy, you are the Honor of our people."

I tell my children that they are my "joy"--that's not worship. And I thought we all "honored" our Mother--Protestants and Catholics alike. That's not worship either.

SO, where's the worship? I didn't find it.

I don't find it either.

 

[mojoala]

I do not ask dead people to mediate for me because that would involve praying to them instead of to God.

Praying to God is sufficient, but asking people who are alive to pray for me as well glorifies God and humbles us. Paul consistently asked the churches to pray for him, so it is biblical. Prayer is not done to get what we want - but to align ourselves with God's will and make ourselves receptive to his answer and his way of doing whatever he is going to do about the situation.

If someone prays for you, they are mediatiing to Jesus on your behalf.

But we will have a new thread on this subject sometime in the future after this thread has run its course.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

We usually wait for the moderators to tell us when a thread has run it's course.

Will you at least admit some Catholics worship Mary, and if so, does it appear to be sanctioned by Rome in the example I gave ?

 

[mojoala]

Will you at least admit some Catholics worship Mary, and if so, does it appear to be sanctioned by Rome in the example I gave ?

Yes some Catholics do seem to worship Mary. That is a given. It is not a RCC problem, but a personal and individual problem. Just like those that seem to worship the Bible. Just like the following people are not a Protestant Problem but an personal problem.

Jim Bakker, Pat Robertson, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Jimmy Swaggart, Those snake handlers in Northern Alabama, Fake faith healers like Benny Hinn, etc, etc, and etc.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Two thoughts.....

You only answered the first part of my question. I would like you to address the second part.

Second, since I know of no baptist church that claims authority over any other christians, the straw men you threw out have nothing to do with this discussion.

So I'll try again. Is the RCC negligent in letting the Mexican people worship these dolls, in the pope's name ?