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Mary Worshipers
- Thread starter mojoala
- Start date
As Spurgeon once said, "An ape was never such an ape as when he wore a papish cape." Nothing has changed in that regard. The pope lends approval in silence alone.
What I say is that many catholics ignore even the pope to-day, and local priest lack the power they once enjoyed over the people. Yes, some do worship Mary. By the way, she is not my mother. She was even rebuked one time by Jesus in favour of Martha, showing her absolute humanity.
She died. The only Mediator between man and God is named in scripture, and that is Jesus. He not only died, but rose again, and sits at the right hand of the Father.
As protestants and baptists, we perhaps do not show as much respect as we ought for Mary, the human mother of our Lord Jesus,but she can neither speak for me nor to me.
Cheers,
Jim
What I say is that many catholics ignore even the pope to-day, and local priest lack the power they once enjoyed over the people. Yes, some do worship Mary. By the way, she is not my mother. She was even rebuked one time by Jesus in favour of Martha, showing her absolute humanity.
She died. The only Mediator between man and God is named in scripture, and that is Jesus. He not only died, but rose again, and sits at the right hand of the Father.
As protestants and baptists, we perhaps do not show as much respect as we ought for Mary, the human mother of our Lord Jesus,but she can neither speak for me nor to me.
Cheers,
Jim
think a lot of it is semantics and presuppositions.
Catholics are wrong.
Therefore, how Catholics treat Mary is wrong..
Worshipping anyone but God is wrong.
Therefore Catholics must be worshipping Mary.
No, says the Catholic. I honor Mary.
Wrong, says the Protestant. What you say is honor I say is worship.
Why? Because Catholics must be wrong.
Catholics are wrong because Catholics deify Mary, says the Protestant.
No, says the Catholic, we respect her.
Then the respect you give her must be deification, says the Protestant. Because Catholics are wrong.
I think, ultimately, Protestants are trying to make a point and using this logic to get it across. And Protestants wonder why Catholics just don't get the point. Clearly, to the Protestant, it is because "their foolish minds have been darkened," and the language of St. Paul is used to make the point. Protestants are in the light, Catholics are in the dark. Because Catholics are wrong.
If you detect some circular reasoning, go to the head of the class.
Catholics are wrong.
Therefore, how Catholics treat Mary is wrong..
Worshipping anyone but God is wrong.
Therefore Catholics must be worshipping Mary.
No, says the Catholic. I honor Mary.
Wrong, says the Protestant. What you say is honor I say is worship.
Why? Because Catholics must be wrong.
Catholics are wrong because Catholics deify Mary, says the Protestant.
No, says the Catholic, we respect her.
Then the respect you give her must be deification, says the Protestant. Because Catholics are wrong.
I think, ultimately, Protestants are trying to make a point and using this logic to get it across. And Protestants wonder why Catholics just don't get the point. Clearly, to the Protestant, it is because "their foolish minds have been darkened," and the language of St. Paul is used to make the point. Protestants are in the light, Catholics are in the dark. Because Catholics are wrong.
If you detect some circular reasoning, go to the head of the class.
mojoala said:
Wrong again. The church not only claims authority, it claims infallability. The chatecism it'self says Christ keeps it that way. I'm suprised you would post that, I assume you probably want to be taken seriously, here.
You are dodging my question. Should I rephrase it ?
Nope. You address my question first. I said the RCC fully endorses pagan idolatry, in it's worship of marian images. I gave examles, too, which you wrote off.
Does she, or doesn't she ? (In the instances I gave, should the pope at least put a stop to these festivals ?)
Does she, or doesn't she ? (In the instances I gave, should the pope at least put a stop to these festivals ?)
No you gave a private website pointing to a Mary Apparition that is not recognized by the RCC.Bro. Curtis said:
I don't know the details of the Authority of the RCC, maybe should join a Catholic Forum and ask the question yourself. Here is oneBro. Curtis said:
http://forums.catholic.com/
http://www.udayton.edu/mary/resources/shrines/zapopan.html
http://www.kalarte.com/mexicopix/sanjuan/sanjuan.html
http://www.mexico-insights.com/oct03/fromeditors/
http://www.vwvagabonds.com/MexZapopan.html
http://www.moon.com/planner/puerto_vallarta/mustsees/basilicaofthevirgin.html
http://www.thetimesharebeat.com/mexico/vallarta/guad.htm
The virgin is most certainly recognized by the Vatican. Perhaps you're the one who should join the forums. Come back after, I'll be here.
http://www.kalarte.com/mexicopix/sanjuan/sanjuan.html
http://www.mexico-insights.com/oct03/fromeditors/
http://www.vwvagabonds.com/MexZapopan.html
http://www.moon.com/planner/puerto_vallarta/mustsees/basilicaofthevirgin.html
http://www.thetimesharebeat.com/mexico/vallarta/guad.htm
The virgin is most certainly recognized by the Vatican. Perhaps you're the one who should join the forums. Come back after, I'll be here.
You are not going to answer the challenge, I see.
Nice talking with you.
Nice talking with you.
Marcia
Active Member
mojoala said:
But Mary is not our mother!! And it is a very different thing to go to our mothers while they are alive on earth, and try to go to them when they are in heaven (assuming they are there). We don't beg people who have died for comfort and protection, especially when Jesus is our advocate and we are to look to Him.
Talking to someone who is dead is contacting the dead. There is no biblical admonition to practice this at all; in fact, the Bible is against it.
When you have Jesus, the Savior, how can you go to a human being like Mary, who is dead, and undoubtedly cannot even hear you.
Your adoration of Mary indicates that Jesus for you is insufficient. This is making a goddess out of a human being. You do not even have biblical support for her hearing anyone on earth, much less that we should be speaking to her.
Recognizing Mary's role and the praise for her in the Bible is one thing; to elevate her beyond that to someone in heaven whom you can address is another.
I've had conversations with Roman Catholics about Mary and so far not a single one of them has been able to provide any biblical support for the adoration of and speaking to Mary.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
mojoala said:
#1. The RCC was not "newly minted in the last 10 years" so "yes" she is accountable for ALL her Popes and published authorities!!
#2. There has BEEN NO condemnation of the papal statements I posted.
#3. You are free to condemn them if you wish.
IF ALL non-Catholics SWORE that J Swaggart and all his successors were "infallible" then YES I would expect some "Accountability".
But your attempt to equivocate between the claims that Catholic Pope's have over ALL catholics -- vs the claims that J Swaggert has over ALL non-Catholics -- dies before you launched it.
The same goes for all bogus examples that do not "equate" to the level of POPE when it comes to the group ALL CATHOLICS!!
Surely you do have some kind of "actual" defense in this case.
IF you are claiming that we are supposed to think that Catholics IGNORE THEIR POPES, BISHOPS and CARDINALS -- then you are claiming complete ignorance about the behavior of Catholics in the dark ages.
IF you have proven that POPES are to be IGNORED --
Then you would have actual "data" to support your bogus claim about "dead horse".
But "having nothing" you simply "make the dead horse claim anyway".
Is that suppose to "mean something" to us???!!
So then having NO ANSWER at all to the post I gave - why do you expect it to "go away anyway"??
Correction.
A devastating quote to which you have no response - continually brought up as a reminder that "you have no response" is simply highlighting the flaws in your position.
Next.
I did give a response via someone else and you ignored it. So I will post it again.
It seems this dribble has been posted as well in other places and here is a good defense of it.
Quote:
Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty
This same poetry is found in the language of countless 19th century poets, too. . .do we suspect them of diefying their subjects? The language of love is beyond words. . .we do our best. Some do better than others. That's not worship.
Quote:
and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother
As she is the Mother of our Lord and our Mother given to us by our Lord on the Cross, we look to her as children look to a mother. As children, when we were scared did we not go to our earthly mothers with our fears? Did we not throw ourselvs into our mother's arms? Did we not beg her protection? Did we not have faith that she could help us? In doing all this, did that somehow make her a god to us? Of course not. This is simply how children look to a mother. That's not worship.
Quote:
....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature
This is very simply adoration and praise of our Lord and God. We notice in our Mother the "peerless richness" of what God has done in her. We acknowledge that even with all her gifts, she is still but a creature. We marvel at the goodness of God in his creation of our Blessed Mother. That's not worship.
Quote:
from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
Again, we are recognized the created being of our Blessed Mother. We recognize that though she is crowned Queen, it is not a self-proclaimed or self-attained position. "He" crowned her. There is a definite hierarchy implicit in such language. We recognize the special position of grace and honor God has given the Mother He chose from all eternity to bring forth the Son. That's not worship.
Quote:
Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume.
We are all meant, created, intended to be fountains of faith for each other--that's our call as Christians. Here we are simply recognizing the crystalline example of faith in our Mother. We honor her for her example and her faithfulness. In poetic language, we are simply expressing our deepest desire to follow her example. That's not worship.
Quote:
Oh Conqueress of evil and death
See Genesis and Revelation. That's prophecy, that's not worship.
Quote:
inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell.
We are asking of our Blessed Mother the very thing that we expect of our pastors and religious. We are asking for her to "inspire" us. We are asking our Mother to teach us. We are asking her to protect us with her instruction. We are asking for her guidance and love. That's not worship.
Quote:
Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you.
Echoing the greeting of the angel Gabriel, we address our Mother. We ask her to hear us as children. We celebrate her. My mom, here on earth, is beloved of God. I ask my mom to listen to me. . .to pray for me. . .to teach me. . .to love me. I celebrate her on Mother's Day and on her birthday. That's not worship.
Quote:
Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble.
We're asking her to do the job of a mother. That's not worship.
Quote:
Quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church.
We're asking her to do the job of a Christian. That's not worship.
Quote:
In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...
We recognize her special place in God's kingdom. We recognize that through her Son, Jesus Christ, we have been made "brothers." We are children of the same Father. We have been given a Mother. That's not worship.
Quote:
Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you,
We are asking for our Mother's help. We bring her our needs. We have faith in her ability to use the gifts she's been given to meet our needs. That's not worship.
Quote:
we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars.
Is not the altar of God, the table of his family? Do we not all share in the sacrifices of our Savior, Jesus Christ? Would this be any less for His Blessed Mother? As Christians, do we doubt that any altar of the Blessed Mother's is wholly dedicated to the worship of her Creator and Son?
Quote:
You are beautiful Oh Mary.
My husband tells me I'm beautiful. That's not worship.
Quote:
You are GloryOh Mary.
As the tabernacle of the Lord, our Blessed Mother is filled with the Glory of God. To recognize God's movement in her is not worship.
Quote:
You are the joy, you are the Honor of our people."
I tell my children that they are my "joy"--that's not worship. And I thought we all "honored" our Mother--Protestants and Catholics alike. That's not worship either.
SO, where's the worship? I didn't find it.
I don't find it either.
mojoala said:
Who is our mother ?
Read the Bible!
Galatians 4:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Please note the Freewoman above means Sara!
1 Peter 3:6
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
John 19:27
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
Please note Jesus didn't say " Behold your(plural) mother!" but say " THY(singular) Mother! ( becase she was often moved by unbelieving sons as you can read in Mt 12:46-50). that was the order to John, not to all. Why didn't Peter server her ? Why didn't Paul mention her as our mother ?
Where did you get God crowned her as "Queen of Heaven " ?
Didn't God condemn calling Queen of Heaven as the goddess worship ?
Read Jeremiah 44
15 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying, 16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee. 17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. 18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. 19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
...............................
25 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows
Bible rejects your logic!
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