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Matt 10:28 does God really "destroy BOTH" Body AND soul in fiery hell??
- Thread starter BobRyan
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BobRyan said:
More innuendo Bob. I don't follow man's tradition. It was the SDA that invented their own doctrine just a few years ago. I take my doctrine from the Bible and only the Bible not from tradition. You had better tread lightly here. I don't like to be falsely accused.
The truth of the matter is the thoughts of the princes are his advice to his subjects. But you ignore context. When one goes to prayer to God, he seeks God's counsel (or advice--God's thoughts). Again, the truth of the matter is, you don't like my exposition of the text, can't refute it on a Biblical basis, so restort to calling names instead. When that happens everyone knows that you are defeated and cannot defend the heresy that you seek to defend.
Again, the name-calling is unwarranted. It only shows defeat on your part.
The text says nothing of torture, Hell, heaven, the resurrection, soul sleep. Again you are reading into it soul sleep just like you would read into the text Purgatory. Right?
If you don't agree with me, fine. But what is wrong with the Bible, that you don't agree with it? I am only the messenger of God. Your problem is with God not with me. So forget about the DHK slander. Take your argument up with God. I have inserted nothing. You insert soul sleep.
Because as your habit is you ignore context. Where in the context is the author speaking of the afterlife--heaven, hell, soul sleep, etc. He is not. He is speaking of belief and trust in the God of Heaven in the here and now. Far better to put your trust in God (now) then to put your trust in princes (now). The after life has nothing to do with it. Why are you bringing philosophical and metaphysical thoughts into this passage when there are none?BobRyan said:
You are the one that must answer the question. Why are you speaking of the metaphysical when the psalmist isn't??
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
The thoughts of a dead person cease at death? Preposterous!
The rich man remembered his brothers, he remembered Lazarus' name and Abraham's.
The thoughts do not cease at death. And that, my friend, is Biblical doctrine.
The rich man remembered his brothers, he remembered Lazarus' name and Abraham's.
The thoughts do not cease at death. And that, my friend, is Biblical doctrine.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Bob argues from scripture -
HBSM posts a direct contradiction
And then backs it up with a parable where all saints sit in Abraham's lap and Abraham is in sovereign control over all saints and whether or not they will be resurrected.
Using that technique - we have the parable of the "trees electing a king over them"!!
HBSM posts a direct contradiction
His Blood Spoke My Name said:
And then backs it up with a parable where all saints sit in Abraham's lap and Abraham is in sovereign control over all saints and whether or not they will be resurrected.
Using that technique - we have the parable of the "trees electing a king over them"!!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK said:
Wrong - again.
The author clearly contrasts the state of being alive WITH memory and WITH the ability to praise God and WITH the ability to think - vs the state of being dead - and NO LONGER having that ability.
Never does the author say he is speaking of "coming to Christ" or "coming to accept the God of heaven".
In all example given in these texts the one who IS praising God and then CEASES at death - is ALREADY a child of God- and has ALREADY come to accept the God of the heaven.
As usual - you are completely ignoring the context to spin another point into it.
You must answer the question - why are you ignoring the context in which these texts are given - as THEY contrast the LIVING state of a PERSON with the dead state of the PERSON and as they show us explicitly what STOPS for the PERSON in the state of death??
Why do you keep ignoring what the texts say?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK said:
Huh??? What limb are you climbing out on now???
Is it your claim that when I observe your position to be endorsed by man-made-tradition but NOT the Bible this is "objectionable" but when you simply slander my position as "heresy" it is NOT objectionable??
The label you are giving is simply pejorative - it conveys no meaning. The term I am using DOES convey meaning - it means that you can not sustain your position from scripture - that in fact it relies on tradition to support it
Your use of "heresy" is an argument of the form "we are right because we always say we are right and you mean ol sdas are wrong". IT is the same accusation the RCC made against the Catholic reformers.
As Andre points out on this thread - this is not an "SDA only" argument that I am making.
WhaHUH???!! "Name calling"??
I have not used terms like "liar" etc My model is not to resort to name calling. If you have a quote of me doing it - I will instantly recant and appologize.
Do you actually "have" such a quote???
Wrong - again.
I said nothing about Purgatory, hell, etc - I what I point out is the "inconvenient details" in the text.
Just when you and others "want to say" that the "VERY THING" that CONTINUES at death is memory, thought, continued worship and praise to God etc (as opposed to child raising, house building, farming etc) -- the BIBLE SAYS that these are the very things that STOP at death.
Obviously.
In Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I would like to get "a second opinion" - where in the WORLD did I use "name calling" in the example you just gave from my post????!!
Your response to my post has been to use the term "heresy" and to attack the SDA denomination itself. I am not saying anything about Baptists and I am not labeling your views as heresy sir.
How in the WORLD do you take my position vs YOURS and say that I am the one resorting to name calling???
I am totally missing that one!
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK said:
Can you point to a case where you have done that "even once" in real life???
"veiled name-calling"????
What in the world are you talking about???
These are "explicit terms" that I do NOT use in my posts "liar", "Heresy", and "denominational references" (for any post on topics not releated to the RCC)
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK said:
I would argue that a simple post of the texts that contradict your position 'suffice' to point out where you are in error. I have shown that repeatedly.
Calling the post of those texts "heresy" is merely exposing the flaw in your argument to a greater extent.
I have explicitly already stated that it does not speak to the resurrection.
Now you need to admit that these texts obviously contrast what DOES happen in the case of the LIVING vs what CEASES at death!!
(Indeed I think you already did that explicitly as well).
Which means you are simply contradicting what you already admitted to -
"(AS long AS he has thoughts (as long AS he is ALIVE) he will praise God" - the text contrasts the LIVING state with the state of being dead and what CEASES when the dead state is reached!
so much for the term "veiled"
In any case - I am not so much complaining about the terms you are using - as I am pointing out the contrast between your methods and mine. Those are terms I just don't use when responding to the obvious Biblical flaws in your argument.
In Christ,
Bob
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: BR, with the way you treat Scripture in your quest for proof texts for your unfounded dogmas concerning soul sleep and the annihilation of the wicked, you would be just as well off trying to start a crusade proclaiming that God is a bird. Scripture does in fact state that “Ps 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust:”
The reader has indeed had an exercise if they have followed your posts on this subject, an exercise in futility.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
This post appears often in this thread - and is at times treated with the contempt that HP deals it in his post above --
I am more than happy to leave it to the reader to determine if there is some flaw in these texts or if merely quoting them and observing how they refute your views is something to turn a blind eye toward.
Let the evidence stand on it's own!
In Christ,
Bob
I am more than happy to leave it to the reader to determine if there is some flaw in these texts or if merely quoting them and observing how they refute your views is something to turn a blind eye toward.
Let the evidence stand on it's own!
In Christ,
Bob
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
BobRyan said:
Your saying the story of the rich man in hell is a parable does not negate the fact that it is not a parable.
Have you bothered looking up the word perish in the versie you quoted from. Psalm146?
All it means is that the thoughts wander away, not that they die as you would imply.
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
from Albert Barnes:
from Adam Clarke:
The dead know nothing in the sense they do not enjoy, nor to they take part in that which happens before death. All that is passed and unreachable from the point of death but the soul lives on and if the soul was not saved beyond death, the soul will indeed remember the earthly things prior to death not things after death
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Ec 9:5For the living know that they shall die,… Death is certain, it is the demerit of sin, the appointment of God and the time of it is fixed; it may be known that it will be, from the word of God that assures it, from all experience which confirms it, and from the decline of nature, and the seeds of death in men. This "the living" know that live corporeally, even the wicked themselves, though they put the evil day far from them; and so good men, that live spiritually, being quickened by the Spirit and grace of God, and live a life of faith and holiness; they know they shall die, though Christ died for them, and has abolished death, as a punishment and a curse, and took away its sting, and made it a blessing; wherefore it is desirable to them, as being for their good: but there are some things about death they ordinarily know not; they do not know the time of their death; nor the place where they shall die; nor of what death they shall die; nor in what circumstances, both outward and inward: of these the Targum understands the passage;
"for the righteous know that if they sin, they shall be reckoned as dead men in the world to come, therefore they keep their ways, and sin not; but if they sin, they return by repentance;''
but the dead know not anything; this is not to be understood of their separate spirits, and of the things of the other world; for the righteous dead know much, their knowledge is greatly increased; they know, as they are known; they know much of God in Christ, of his perfections, purposes, covenant, grace, and love; they know much of Christ, of his person, offices, and glory, and see him as he is; they know much of the Gospel, and the mysteries of it; and of angels, and the spirits of just men, they now converse with; and of the glories and happiness of the heavenly state; even they know abundantly more than they did in this life: and the wicked dead, in their separate spirits, know there is a God that judgeth; that their souls are immortal; that there is a future state; indeed they know and feel the torments of hell, the worm that never dies, and the fire that is not quenched: but this is to be interpreted of their bodily senses now extinct, and of worldly things they have now nothing to do with; they know not any thing that is done in this world, nor how it fares with their children and friends they have left behind them; see Job 14:21; nor therefore are they to be prayed unto, and used as mediators with God. The Targum is,
"and sinners know not any good, so that they do not make their works good while they live; and they know not any good in the world to come;''
neither have they any more a reward; not but that there will be rewards in a future state, in which everyone shall have his own reward; there will be a reward for the righteous; they will receive the reward of the inheritance, though it will be, not of debt, but of grace; and particularly in the millennium state, Ps 58:11; and every transgression of the wicked will receive a just recompence of reward; to whom the reward of their hands will be given them, Heb 2:2; but the sense is, that after death there will be no enjoyment of a man's labours; he will not have the use, profit, and advantage of them, but his heirs that succeed him, Ec 4:9;
for the memory of them is forgotten; not the memory of the righteous with God, for whom a book of remembrance is written, and whose names are written in heaven; these are had in everlasting remembrance, and their memory blessed: but the memory of wicked men; who, though they take pains to perpetuate their names, which they give to their lands, yet the Lord causes their memory to cease, and they are forgotten in the place where they lived; not only among the righteous, as the Targum, but among others, Isa 26:14; even among those that enjoy the fruit of their labour; they will scarce think of them any more, or, however, in a little time they will be quite forgotten by them.
Ec 9:5For the living know that they shall die,… Death is certain, it is the demerit of sin, the appointment of God and the time of it is fixed; it may be known that it will be, from the word of God that assures it, from all experience which confirms it, and from the decline of nature, and the seeds of death in men. This "the living" know that live corporeally, even the wicked themselves, though they put the evil day far from them; and so good men, that live spiritually, being quickened by the Spirit and grace of God, and live a life of faith and holiness; they know they shall die, though Christ died for them, and has abolished death, as a punishment and a curse, and took away its sting, and made it a blessing; wherefore it is desirable to them, as being for their good: but there are some things about death they ordinarily know not; they do not know the time of their death; nor the place where they shall die; nor of what death they shall die; nor in what circumstances, both outward and inward: of these the Targum understands the passage;
"for the righteous know that if they sin, they shall be reckoned as dead men in the world to come, therefore they keep their ways, and sin not; but if they sin, they return by repentance;''
but the dead know not anything; this is not to be understood of their separate spirits, and of the things of the other world; for the righteous dead know much, their knowledge is greatly increased; they know, as they are known; they know much of God in Christ, of his perfections, purposes, covenant, grace, and love; they know much of Christ, of his person, offices, and glory, and see him as he is; they know much of the Gospel, and the mysteries of it; and of angels, and the spirits of just men, they now converse with; and of the glories and happiness of the heavenly state; even they know abundantly more than they did in this life: and the wicked dead, in their separate spirits, know there is a God that judgeth; that their souls are immortal; that there is a future state; indeed they know and feel the torments of hell, the worm that never dies, and the fire that is not quenched: but this is to be interpreted of their bodily senses now extinct, and of worldly things they have now nothing to do with; they know not any thing that is done in this world, nor how it fares with their children and friends they have left behind them; see Job 14:21; nor therefore are they to be prayed unto, and used as mediators with God. The Targum is,
"and sinners know not any good, so that they do not make their works good while they live; and they know not any good in the world to come;''
neither have they any more a reward; not but that there will be rewards in a future state, in which everyone shall have his own reward; there will be a reward for the righteous; they will receive the reward of the inheritance, though it will be, not of debt, but of grace; and particularly in the millennium state, Ps 58:11; and every transgression of the wicked will receive a just recompence of reward; to whom the reward of their hands will be given them, Heb 2:2; but the sense is, that after death there will be no enjoyment of a man's labours; he will not have the use, profit, and advantage of them, but his heirs that succeed him, Ec 4:9;
for the memory of them is forgotten; not the memory of the righteous with God, for whom a book of remembrance is written, and whose names are written in heaven; these are had in everlasting remembrance, and their memory blessed: but the memory of wicked men; who, though they take pains to perpetuate their names, which they give to their lands, yet the Lord causes their memory to cease, and they are forgotten in the place where they lived; not only among the righteous, as the Targum, but among others, Isa 26:14; even among those that enjoy the fruit of their labour; they will scarce think of them any more, or, however, in a little time they will be quite forgotten by them.
Bob's method of stringing together unrelated passages of Scripture in trying to defend an unscriptural defend is much like the proverbial women trying to find the will of God. Her method (much like Bob's) was to open her Bible and wherever her finger fell, that would tell her what God's wil for her life was.
On her first try she opened her Bible and her finger fell to:
"Judas went out and hanged himself"
Oh, that is not a very good verse, she said. So she tried again. This time her finger found:
"Go and do thou likewise."
Now she was a bit troubled, and thought surely if I try a third time God will reveal his will to me. So once again she opened her Bible.
"What thou doest, do quickly."
Bob strings his texts together in like manner. They are unrelated to each other, but when put together sends the wrong message.
On her first try she opened her Bible and her finger fell to:
"Judas went out and hanged himself"
Oh, that is not a very good verse, she said. So she tried again. This time her finger found:
"Go and do thou likewise."
Now she was a bit troubled, and thought surely if I try a third time God will reveal his will to me. So once again she opened her Bible.
"What thou doest, do quickly."
Bob strings his texts together in like manner. They are unrelated to each other, but when put together sends the wrong message.
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