BobRyan said:
I have not seen Hades connected with fiery torment - fire and brimstone etc in the book of Revelation. I was trying to say that John uses terms like "Second Death", "Fire and Brimstone" and "lake of Fire" to refer to the fiery judgment due to the wicked -- instead of terms like "Ghenna" or fiery Ghenna.
OK, so we agree that they are all referring to some sort of penalty, right?
But, are we certain that they're referring to the same penalty?
You and I see the gehenna warnings being given to saved individuals, we just disagree on the eventual outcome; this is something that saved individuals need to be concerned with.
Do saved people have to worry about the lake of fire, though?
BobRyan said:
In Matt 25 we are told that the wicked receive the same "everlasting fire" judgment that is currently reserved for the Devil and his angels.
Let's look at Matthew 25:31-46 in some general terms. This is one passage that some have used with me in the past to show that you could become unsaved.
First of all, he's separating the sheep from the goats. Most people see this as saved vs unsaved. I was taught this most of my life. However, we're told in Numbers 18:17, "But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD. "
We are given types and pictures in the OT, and goats are a clean animal. I don't think the Lord is going to use a clean animal to represent someone who's headed for the lake of fire any more than he uses a virgin to picture an unsaved person.
The entire passage is talking about works, works, and more works.
Then, we get down to verse 41, and he tells those who didn't have the good works some stuff. He callse them "cursed" and tells them to depart into this fire. This fire is aionian fire. It's limited duration. (This looks good to the theology that you hold to, but to those who believe in unlimited punishment and/or OSAS, it presents a dilemma.)
"Aionios" is an adjective from the noun "aion" which means "age". It's a period of limited duration, and cannot mean "forever". The period of limitation is not specified by the word itself, although some societies that used Latin in the past made it mean 120 years. In the Greek, it simply means a period of limited duration, without a reference to the specific beginning or ending. (It's 1,000 years in this case, but I don't want to get into that here; this is already long enough.) [As an added aside: If you look at the etymological history of the word "eternal" in English, it did not mean forever until the late 1700's or so, and today, it technically means without beginning or ending. The expression for "forever" is used in several places, and the word for "eternal" as we would view it today (without beginning or ending or, technically, existing outside of time, is used only twice in the NT.]
This is where the picture that someone used (I can't remember who right off hand) comes into play. This fire is a little bit, and when it is added to the lake 1000 years later, who's going to notice?
BobRyan said:
So these NT authors place the devil as an active enemy of the followers of Christ today - rather than his being confined to his final fiery judgment -
Amen, brother! Not only is he the enemy of Christians, I think that's his primary objective. I know that most people present him as weak and powerless against us, and that he's just trying to hold onto what he has (the unsaved), but I think the Scriptures plainly show that he wants to bring us down.
I know that you an I disagree on what he wants to bring us down to, but I just praise God that you see that we (Christians) are his primary focus here on this earth! If only more Christians would see that in Scriptures, that would be one less thing to argue about.
Satan is the god of this world, and he will be until Jesus takes over. This is stated explicitly (not simply implied) in Scriptures, yet when you preach that, people will stand up and shout you down!
BobRyan said:
But in Rev 20 we DO see him subjected to fiery judgment - for the first time in all of scripture.
Yes we do! But, what is the time frame, particularly in relation to other events?
BobRyan said:
Yes I do agree with that. They are judged according to their deeds as we are told in Rev 20 and in 2Cor 5.
This is another point that I find ironic. You and I, on opposite sides of the OSAS doctrine, can both see that this is talking about works.
So many cannot.
Or, they simply try to claim that backloading works onto it isn't really works. ("Well, if you're really and truly saved, then you will/won't do this or that", is a very popular, but very unbiblical teaching today.)
BobRyan said:
It depends on the author - if you read Matthew you see "Gehenna" but not "the lake of fire".
If you read John you see "Fire" and "Fire and Brimstone" and "second Death" and "lake of fire" but not Gehenna.
They are all using different terms to talk about the same thing.
Now here is where you're making an assumption.
Matthew is warning about fire, John is warning about fire, and you equate them. However, our works are going to be tried by fire. Is that the same thing?
Also, if you hold that the lake of fire is literal (which I do), gehenna is not; it's figurative. Although the image was a real place at one time, it no longer exists. You cannot find it.
I think Scriptures support that the lake of fire is a literal future for unsaved people. I think the gehenna warnings are real, but the punishment is figurative, and it's given to saved people.
BobRyan said:
Rev 20 calls the fire and brimstone judgment "the second death".
In John 11 - Christ completely discounts the first death sufferred by Lazarus as "nothing at all" by comparison to that 2nd death.
In Matt 10:28 you see the two deaths in stark contrast.
Well, I agree that the first death is insignificant.
However, I think Scriptures show that the second death is much more than simply the lake of fire, and the second death is only a problem for
