Matt 10:28 does God really "destroy BOTH" Body AND soul in fiery hell??

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: In Rev 20 we see that they both go in at the same time and in the same place. But we do not see that they all are tortured for the same length of time.

HP: Let’s take your logic and approach to the Word of God to another level. Let me ask you a question. Are we, as believers, going to spend eternity with the Lord? If so can you quote a Scripture that states that for the list?

 

[Andre]

HP: Well stated DHK. With this I heartily concur. That is the plain teaching of Scripture.

With all due respect, just saying this is not convincing. Perhaps you can give us some actual evidence that supports this view and cannot be taken as equally supportive of the "non-immortal soul" position.

 

[Andre]

By the way, if the existence of an immortal soul is "the plain teaching of Sripture" , this truth seems to have eluded Martin Luther who wrote in his "95 theses" (I added the bolding):

"However, I permit the Pope to establish articles of faith for himself and for his own faithful—such are: That the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament; that the essence of God neither generates nor is generated; that the soul is the substantial form of the human body that he [the pope] is emperor of the world and king of heaven, and earthly god; that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals"

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre: With all due respect, just saying this is not convincing. Perhaps you can give us some actual evidence that supports this view and cannot be taken as equally supportive of the "non-immortal soul" position.

HP: You are very respectful and kind. Thank you Andre!

I still do not feel confident I understand what you really believe as to man’s nature. I thought at least that you believe we are going to live with the Lord as believers for all eternity. Am I correct or not in this assumption? If we are going to live eternally with Him, how would this differ substantially in believing or stating that we are basically created as ‘immortal’ at least in a sense?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre: By the way, if the existence of an immortal soul is "the plain teaching of Sripture" , this truth seems to have eluded Martin Luther who wrote in his "95 theses" (I added the bolding):

"However, I permit the Pope to establish articles of faith for himself and for his own faithful—such are: That the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament; that the essence of God neither generates nor is generated; that the soul is the substantial form of the human body that he [the pope] is emperor of the world and king of heaven, and earthly god; that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals"

HP: Why would anything a man that rejected at least one portion of the Word of God as an “epistle of straw” be seen as strange? Martin Luther missed the boat on many issues, the “The Doctrine of the Will” remaining a living testament to that fact.

 

[Andre]

I still do not feel confident I understand what you really believe as to man’s nature. I thought at least that you believe we are going to live with the Lord as believers for all eternity. Am I correct or not in this assumption? If we are going to live eternally with Him, how would this differ substantially in believing or stating that we are basically created as ‘immortal’ at least in a sense?

Thanks for your kind words. I gotta run, but I want to be clear: I do indeed believe that all those redeemed by Christ will indeed live eternally with Him! Hope to expand on this later....

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre: Hope to expand on this later....

HP: I look forward to hearing you out on this matter.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Let’s take your logic and approach to the Word of God to another level. Let me ask you a question. Are we, as believers, going to spend eternity with the Lord? If so can you quote a Scripture that states that for the list?

Oh Let's do.

John 10:28
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

John 11:26
and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Contrast that with

Ezek 18:4 "The soul that SINS IT SHALL DIE"
Matt 10:28 God "Destroys BOTH body AND SOUL in fiery hell"

Ezek 28] <Speaking of Satan>
18
"By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
[b] It has consumed you, [/b]
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"

 

[DHK]

By the way, if the existence of an immortal soul is "the plain teaching of Sripture" , this truth seems to have eluded Martin Luther who wrote in his "95 theses" (I added the bolding):

"However, I permit the Pope to establish articles of faith for himself and for his own faithful—such are: That the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament; that the essence of God neither generates nor is generated; that the soul is the substantial form of the human body that he [the pope] is emperor of the world and king of heaven, and earthly god; that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals"

We follow the Bible and not man. Luther was not even a Baptist
He was a reformer, amd during the Reformation he fought virorously to reform and protest against the RCC. In some areas he went too far. Why did he believe in soul sleep, and thus a denial of the immortality of the soul? Here it is:

The immediate cause of Luther's stand on the sleep of the soul was the issue of purgatory, with its postulate of the conscious torment of anguished souls. While Luther is not always consistent, the predominant note running all through his writings is that souls sleep in peace, without consciousness or pain. The Christian dead are not aware of anything—see not, feel not, understand not, and are not conscious of passing events. Luther held and periodically stated that in the sleep of death, as in normal physical sleep, there is complete unconsciousness and unawareness of the condition of death or the passage of time.† Death is a deep, sound, sweet sleep.‡ And the dead will remain asleep

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/luther-tyndale.htm

His contention was with the Catholic Church. His great opposition to the RCC sometimes even colored his own beliefs, as I believe, was the case here. If all believers slept in death, then obviously it would be impossible to pray to them in heaven and for them in purgatory. It was a great argument; just not scriptural.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Oh Let's do.

John 10:28
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

John 11:26
and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Contrast that with

Ezek 18:4 "The soul that SINS IT SHALL DIE"
Matt 10:28 God "Destroys BOTH body AND SOUL in fiery hell"

HP: What is the meaning of eternal? Can it be seen to mean immortal, at least in a sense, i.e., continuing on forever?

 

[BobRyan]

DHK
His contention was with the Catholic Church. His great opposition to the RCC sometimes even colored his own beliefs, as I believe, was the case here. If all believers slept in death, then obviously it would be impossible to pray to them in heaven and for them in purgatory.

Exactly - all these doctrinal errors are avoided simply by accepting the Bible truth that we do NOT have immortal souls/spirits -- man "is mortal" not "immortal".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

HP: What is the meaning of eternal? Can it be seen to mean immortal, at least in a sense, i.e., continuing on forever?

In 1Cor 15 speaking of the resurrection of the saints "This MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY" -- how far should we go in contradicting that statement. It is instructive that we DO see texts predicting immortality at the resurrection but NONE claiming that we have it now.

1 Timothy 4:8
for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.

Mark 10:30
but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

 

[DHK]

Hello DHK (and others):
Now in respect to your last post, please explain how it is that one cannot take Romans 6:23 and conclude that the wages of sin is extinction of the entire human person? You say that my take on this verse is incorrect. We need to be told how it is incorrect, not merely told that it is incorrect.

I have explained this verse to you now at least three or four times, and yet you will not believe. It is you that takes on the form of argument that when I say X you say Y, and offer no evidence. You offer opinion (yours), and I offer the Word of God. Sorry to say, but opinion is not worth a hill of beans. If your opinion cannot be backed up by the Word of God it is useless.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--The gift of God is "eternal life." A phrase that is contrasted with "death" specifically "eternal death." Paul is making a contrast between the two concepts.

Look at the context. Is the context speaking of temporal or eternal consequences. See verse 22, the preceding verse:

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
--If one is free from sin the end or result is everlasting life.
If you are not free from sin the end or result is everlasting death.
The context is eternity. What is your destiny? Will you have eternal life or eternal death? The wages of sin is eternal death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Paul didn't have to insert the adjective "eternal" before death, in order to make the meaning of the verse clear. It is clear by means of the context of the passage.
However your mind is made up and you will not listen to reason. So no matter what I say will not convince you.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: BR: Let me ask you the same question again since you failed to answer it the first time. What is the meaning of eternal? Can it be seen to mean immortal, at least in a sense, i.e., continuing on forever?

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--The gift of God is "eternal life." A phrase that is contrasted with "death" specifically "eternal death." Paul is making a contrast between the two concepts.

True - the saints live forever. The wicked are dead forever.

 

[DHK]

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Exactly - all these doctrinal errors are avoided simply by accepting the Bible truth that we do NOT have immortal souls/spirits -- man "is mortal" not "immortal".

In Christ,

Bob

Take your argument up with the Word of God.

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
--It is evident that we are immortal.

 

[BobRyan]

Take your argument up with the Word of God.

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
--It is evident that we are immortal.

is this the part where we ignore the inconvenient fact that 1cor 15 is speaking of a future event - the resurrection of the saints?
"then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory"

Because if we pay attention to that fact - we find out that NOW on THIS side of the resurrection - we are MORTAL.

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity


Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

 

[DHK]

True - the saints live forever. The wicked are dead forever.

Use Biblical definitions.
Death in the Bible never means annihilation.
It speaks of eternal death, or eternal separation from God almighty. It is eternal torment in a place called Hell (or the Lake of Fire to be more specific--for Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire).
Death in the Bible is always spoken of as separation; never as annihilation.
Proper definitions are essential.

 

[DHK]

is this the part where we ignore the inconvenient fact that 1cor 15 is speaking of a future event - the resurrection of the saints?

Because if we pay attention to that fact - we find out that NOW on THIS side of the resurrection - we are MORTAL.

We are mortal beings. But more specifically we have immortal spirits clothed with a mortal body. Someday this mortal body will put on immortality and house this immortal spirit, and both body and spirit will be forever with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1-3 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Paul explains it well in this passage.
Our bodies are only temporal, like a tent. Someday we will receive an immortal body that will clothe the immortal spirit that now dwells inside this temporary tent that we now have. We wait for that day.

 

[BobRyan]

Death in the Bible doe NOT mean "live forever"

Death in the Bible does NOT mean "be inconvenienced forever"

And yes "destroy by reducing them to ashes" is in fact what it means. EVEN in this life "from dust to dust"

Gen 3:4 "you shall NOT surely die"

Gen 3
22 Then the LORD God said, ""Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever''
23 therefore the LORD God sent him out[/b] from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the [b]flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.