Matt 10:28 does God really "destroy BOTH" Body AND soul in fiery hell??

[BobRyan]

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell, a place of torment and fire
...
When Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire, it will still be there. The flames will not be extinguished.

It will be assimilated by the Lake of Fire. Thus it is not improper to talk of the everlasting fires of Hell. As they will continue to burn in the Lake of Fire

Interesting - but then we start to notice the inconvenient details of scripture --

#1. John is writing in Rev 20 -- the term is Hades not the fiery Ghenna of Matt 10. John only references hell as fire and brimstone in the book of Rev - possibly because he is writing late in the first century and trying to avoid confusion with the Greek pagan myths

#2. the Devil is not cast into the Mat 25:41 "everlasting fire" until cast ito the LAKE of FIRE --

Rev 20:10
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.[/b]

Matt 25: 41 Then He will also say to those on His left, " Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire (everlasting fire KJV) which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Here in Rev 20:10 we finally see the devil cast into the fire that Christ stated as being “prepared for the devil AND his angels” .

The reference to the lake of fire – is already mentioned in Rev 19 – and we see it before the 1000 years as well as after. It would appear that it too is on earth. Heaven and earth have both been referenced so far in the chapter – as though both exist before and after the 1000 years.


11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

We observe that Hades the Greek equivalent to Sheol “the Grave” just as we saw in Acts 2
Acts 2
29 "" Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 ""And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
32 ""This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.


In Rev 20 we notice again that it is the “sea” and the “Grave” that give up the dead – these are terms that would appear to apply to the earth. So also we see that the wicked are throne into the lake of fire – first mentioned in Rev 19 at the appearing of Christ prior to the 1000 years. (19:20)

 

[BobRyan]

If the devil and his angels are going to annihilated-- will cease to exist-- upon physical destruction in the lake of fire, what is it they so fear when they see Jesus coming to Gadara, for example, and ajuring him to not torment them "before the time?" Big deal. I have it all planned if I am ever trapped in a burning room with no escape-- deliberately intake a breath from just above the flame; it will immediately give a "hot lung" and instant death.

Those who imagine that being burned alive in the lake of fire "is pretty much ok" are not taking the subject seriously.

Luke 12:45-51 tells us that the pain and torment measured out to the wicked in fiery hell (Ghenna) which is "fire and brimstone" 2nd death in Rev 20 is supernatural. As Rev 14:10 points out regarding that torment in fire and brimstone "they have no rest day or nite".

I am not "making up" God's own explanation that judgment by everlasting fire "destroys by reducing them to ashes" this is already in scripture.

But in the case of the first death - it "destroys the body but NOT the soul".

Those who imagine that the second death ALSO "destroys the body but NOT the soul" are seriously misreading the text.

In Christ,

bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK
Burned but not anihilated. Why do you read into Scripture that which is not there. Have you not read of the "burning bush" in Moses time--it burned, but was not annihilated.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=973267&postcount=121

Satan and all the wicked CONSUMED "destroyed" - "reduced to ashes" --

Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”
2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”

“You will make them a fiery oven in the time of your anger; The Lord will swallow them up in His wrath, [b]fire will devour them. Their offspring you will Destroy from the earth..”[/quote]

The wicked will “be no more”

Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and [b]man became a living soul.[/b]

]Ezek 18
4"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die.[/b]


Ezek 28:13-19 – Satan will “be no more” reduced to ashes

[quote]Ezek 28 <Speaking of Satan>
18
"By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
[b] It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"

How great the contrast between Satan’s “beginning” and his “end” –

 

[BobRyan]

In Revelation 20:14, the word is "hades". It's the grave.

True. In John's writing what others call "fiery ghenna" is called "the 2nd death" and "the Lake of Fire" and "Fire and Brimstone".

So you are correct - the grave gets thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone by first giving up the dead that are in the grave.

i.e. the bodily resurrection of the wicked in the "2nd resurrection" (as opposed to the FIRST resurrection - described in Rev 20:4-5)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

HP: And the plot thickens. So now we have God reducing men to ashes that have not been annihilated the first time: proof, the bodily resurrection later on. I can only conclude that reducing one to ashes in no wise means or implies annihilation as you would have us to believe.

If "reducing them to ashes" is not the same as the meaning you pour into your inserted term "annhiliation" - I really don't care - because "destroy by reducing them to ashes" is sufficient for the argument I am making about "destroy BOTH body AND soul" in fiery hell.

In the case of the everlasting fire used to destroy Sodom it caused complete and total destruction in the FIRST death context where the "body is destroyed but not the soul".

However that SAME destruction is THEN applied to "BOTH body AND SOUL" in the SECOND death.

The fact that EVERLASTING FIRE was used to accomplish that FIRST DEATH destruction of ALL the people in Sodom AND the city of Sodom merely "annihilates" the story telling that floats around about "everlasting fire" resulting in "immortal fuel".:laugh:

(hint: you guys are making this too easy)


In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: If "reducing them to ashes" is not the same as the meaning you pour into your inserted term "annhiliation" - I really don't care - because "destroy by reducing them to ashes" is sufficient for the argument I am making about "destroy BOTH body AND soul" in fiery hell.

HP: Your arguments are a lot like excuses. They only satisfy the one that is making them. I would agree that you do not care as you imply, for your presuppositions obviously have overshadowed your ability to reason objectively on the subject.
You strain at gnats and swallow camels. You insert your own limited and narrow meaning for the word 'destroy’ in spite the multitude of Scriptural evidence to the contrary.

One thing is for sure. We have received no such notion as you indicate from Scripture or the early apostles. Your ideas are novel, foreign to the Word of God and to be rejected as false.

 

[tragic_pizza]

The topic is eternal punishment in hell and annihilation of the wicked. Are you insinuating that ordained women will spend an eternity in hell or will be annihilated instead? What is your point? I just spent an entire post explaining why we should keep things in their context. Are you trying to derail this thread, or what?

Well, I'm only asking why context applies to this particular instance and not all instances.

And, no, I'm not like the guy who listened to a preachers saying women preachers are an abomination and killed my friend.

I'm just wondering why Fundamentalists get to decide where to draw the arbitrary line.

 

[Andre]

You insert your own limited and narrow meaning for the word 'destroy’ in spite the multitude of Scriptural evidence to the contrary.

I see no "scriptural evidence" that destroy means anything other than destroy. I know we have all been down this road before, but I think the evidence is clear that the "destroy really means to preserve in eternal torment" argument is totally circular and / or based on an imported Greek notion of the dualistic nature of mankind.

The believer in annihilation can believe that "destroy" really means "destroy", that "death" really means "death", that "be no more" really means "be no more" and on and on. The believer in "eternal torment" has to insert all sorts of re-defined meanings for these terms in order to make that system work. While people "on the inside" of this way of thinking may think that this is legitimate, I suggest that it is only due to familiarity that it is so viewed....

 

[DHK]

I see no "scriptural evidence" that destroy means anything other than destroy. I know we have all been down this road before, but I think the evidence is clear that the "destroy really means to preserve in eternal torment" argument is totally circular and / or based on an imported Greek notion of the dualistic nature of mankind.

The believer in annihilation can believe that "destroy" really means "destroy", that "death" really means "death", that "be no more" really means "be no more" and on and on. The believer in "eternal torment" has to insert all sorts of re-defined meanings for these terms in order to make that system work. While people "on the inside" of this way of thinking may think that this is legitimate, I suggest that it is only due to familiarity that it is so viewed....

"I see no scriptural evidence that destroy means anything else other than destroy."
That is your problem. You don't know what destroy means. How can you define a word with the same word, and yet not give the definition of the word.
You only assume it means annihilation and then infer it can have no other meaning. What gives you the right to be the dictionary for the BB?
If I spill a cup of coffee on my computer is it destroyed? Yes, but it is not annihilated. When my son blew a piston on his car and was no longer able to drive it, was it destroyed. Yes, for all functional purposes it was destroyed--inoperable--but it was not annihilated. Nowhere does the dictionary give the meaning that destroy have to mean annihilation. In fact if you want to get very technical science tells us that nothing can be destroyed. Matter is never destroyed. It is only changed from one substance to another. Thus if I burn wood in my fire place, I have destroyed nothing. I have produced heat for my house and ashes for my garden. Nothing has been destroyed. So check your definitions at the door, and when you are ready to use the definitions that the Bible uses, then we can have an intelligent discussion.

 

[Andre]

"I see no scriptural evidence that destroy means anything else other than destroy."
That is your problem. You don't know what destroy means. How can you define a word with the same word, and yet not give the definition of the word.
You only assume it means annihilation and then infer it can have no other meaning. What gives you the right to be the dictionary for the BB?
If I spill a cup of coffee on my computer is it destroyed? Yes, but it is not annihilated. When my son blew a piston on his car and was no longer able to drive it, was it destroyed. Yes, for all functional purposes it was destroyed--inoperable--but it was not annihilated. Nowhere does the dictionary give the meaning that destroy have to mean annihilation. In fact if you want to get very technical science tells us that nothing can be destroyed. Matter is never destroyed. It is only changed from one substance to another. Thus if I burn wood in my fire place, I have destroyed nothing. I have produced heat for my house and ashes for my garden. Nothing has been destroyed. So check your definitions at the door, and when you are ready to use the definitions that the Bible uses, then we can have an intelligent discussion.

There is some truth in your post - an entity of some kind can indeed be destroyed without being being reduced to nothingness. However, I believe the overall evidence of Scripture is clear - references to destruction of the wicked are indeed references to their annihilation.

Let the reader not be confused - the fact that the nominal definition of "destroy" does not necessitate annihilation has very little value in supporting the notion that the unredeemed persist in eternal torment. The weight of scripture closes the door on that possibility.

Of course, one can talk legitimately about people being "destroyed" without their being annihilated. However, when it comes to the fate of the wicked, the scriptures are chock full of all sorts of other expressions that make it clear that their end-state is non-existence, for example, comparing the wicked to combustible materials.

And the arument that "matter is never really destroyed, it only changes state" is highly misleading. If I toss a working grandfather clock into the fire, it, as a grandfather clock, is indeed destroyed. What makes the clock a clock is not the atoms it is made of, but the way they organized and the functions which that organization gives rise to. And it is these things that are indeed destroyed.

Is that intelligent enough for you?

 

[Hope of Glory]

#1. John is writing in Rev 20 -- the term is Hades not the fiery Ghenna of Matt 10. John only references hell as fire and brimstone in the book of Rev - possibly because he is writing late in the first century and trying to avoid confusion with the Greek pagan myths

#2. the Devil is not cast into the Mat 25:41 "everlasting fire" until cast ito the LAKE of FIRE --

This reply is going to also parially cover your later reply to me, which is quoted below:

True. In John's writing what others call "fiery ghenna" is called "the 2nd death" and "the Lake of Fire" and "Fire and Brimstone".

So you are correct - the grave gets thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone by first giving up the dead that are in the grave.

i.e. the bodily resurrection of the wicked in the "2nd resurrection" (as opposed to the FIRST resurrection - described in Rev 20:4-5)

OK, I'm glad to see that at least you can distinguish between Hades (and Sheol) and Gehenna; many people cannot make that distinction. (What about Tartarus, BTW? It's translated as "hell" once in the NT and once in the Apocrypha.)

But, where in the Revelation? Every word that is translated as "hell" is hades in the Revelation. Where is hades connected to fire and brimstone?

In Matthew 25:41, it is "the fire (aionian) prepared for the devil and his angels". It does not say that he is cast into anything here, and I think that's an important distinction.

One thing that I think you will agree with, is that the gehenna warnings are given to people, based on works. I find that ironic, since we are on opposite sides of the OSAS fence. But, so many who believe OSAS cannot see the warnings that are given to saved people. They believe OSAS, they see works, they see "hell", they equate "hell" with the "lake of fire", so it can't be warnings to me!

Also, you have yet to show me where the Scriptures equate "gehenna" with "lake of fire". You've shown me assumptions. I assume that those assumptions are based on what you've been taught your entire life about the unsaved "going to hell!" just as I was most of my life.

But, where is it in Scriptures?

Also, about the second death: What is the first death?

You can find that in Ephesians 2:1: And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

The second death is when one who as life perishes. They have erred from the truth and have not repented.

James 5:19-20: Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Those in Revelation 21 have perished; they have lost their life; it has to do with the saving of the soul; it is about works (which I also find ironic for the same reason):

Revelation 21:8: Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving [faithless], and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

But, it's their part or their share that is in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone. It's their share in the coming Kingdom. It's based on works.

That's the second death. Those who were never alive cannot die! You can't lose something that you don't have!

Jude 1:11-13: Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees (that have born fruit; it can't wither if it's not there) whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever [into the age].

 

[DHK]

And the arument that "matter is never really destroyed, it only changes state" is highly misleading. If I toss a working grandfather clock into the fire, it, as a grandfather clock, is indeed destroyed. What makes the clock a clock is not the atoms it is made of, but the way they organized and the functions which that organization gives rise to. And it is these things that are indeed destroyed.

Is that intelligent enough for you?

Yes indeed. Take it one step further. Take an ant, a grasshopper (locust--John the Baptist's diet), or even a cockroach, the preferred diet of some minority of our population who like to dine on the delicacies of insects these days. Fry them up (just like you would beef), and consume them. They belong to the animal kingdom and were at one time animals. Do animals have spirits? No. Do people have spirits? Yes. For God made man in the image and likeness of God. And he breathed into him the breath of life.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In this sense does man differ from all other animals. He has an eternal spirit which lives forever. Man is not like an animal. He is actually a spirit being clothed in a temporal house or body. Someday his spirit will receive a celestial body which will live forever. But man will never be destroyed unlike your clock, or my insects or other animals. Man is immortal. He cannot be destroyed in the sense of being annihilated. The Scriptures do not teach that anywhere. That is not one verse in the Bible that teaches that. In order to teach that doctrine you must redefine Biblical words and make them fit to your own definitions which you are making up simply to fit your own pre-conceived ideas. No where does the Bible teach the annihilation of the wicked. But verse after verse teaches that man has an immortal spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:1-3 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Our earthly body is temporal. We wait to be clothed with our heavenly body which will be permanent and eternal. Read the rest of the chapter for further understanding.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
--What kind of body does Jesus have? It is a glorified, eternal body. We also, who believe in him, shall also receive of the same body.

There are two resurrections. At the first resurrection the saved will receive their glorified bodies and will live for Christ for all eternity.
At the second resurrection the unsaved will also receive a body, but will stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgement, only to receive their final sentence to be cast into the Lake of Fire there to suffer eternal torment forever and ever. That is the second death--separation from God for all eternity. The Bible always speaks of death in terms of separation, not annihilation. If you are unwilling to accept biblical terminology, then you will forever be at lost when it comes to biblical understanding.

 

[Andre]

He is actually a spirit being clothed in a temporal house or body. Someday his spirit will receive a celestial body which will live forever. But man will never be destroyed unlike your clock, or my insects or other animals. Man is immortal. He cannot be destroyed in the sense of being annihilated. The Scriptures do not teach that anywhere. That is not one verse in the Bible that teaches that.

I would be interested in any evidence at all from the Bible that suggests that man has an immortal spirit and or that there exists a conscious-bearing component of man that can survive apart from a body. Please note that texts that are only consistent with the position that you support and yet are also equally consistent with competing positions.

In order to teach that doctrine you must redefine Biblical words and make them fit to your own definitions which you are making up simply to fit your own pre-conceived ideas. No where does the Bible teach the annihilation of the wicked. But verse after verse teaches that man has an immortal spirit.

Show me just one verse, just one. But please, if it is a verse that works equally well with the "no immortal spirit" position, I will not fail to notice this. Also, if you are going to claim that "the Bible defines X as such and such", please defend such a claim.

 

[DHK]

Show me just one verse, just one. But please, if it is a verse that works equally well with the "no immortal spirit" position, I will not fail to notice this. Also, if you are going to claim that "the Bible defines X as such and such", please defend such a claim.

I have given you Scripture in my post above. Why do you ignore it? Start dealing with those ones first.

 

[BobRyan]

OK, I'm glad to see that at least you can distinguish between Hades (and Sheol) and Gehenna; many people cannot make that distinction. (What about Tartarus, BTW? It's translated as "hell" once in the NT and once in the Apocrypha.)

But, where in the Revelation? Every word that is translated as "hell" is hades in the Revelation. Where is hades connected to fire and brimstone?

I have not seen Hades connected with fiery torment - fire and brimstone etc in the book of Revelation. I was trying to say that John uses terms like "Second Death", "Fire and Brimstone" and "lake of Fire" to refer to the fiery judgment due to the wicked -- instead of terms like "Ghenna" or fiery Ghenna.

In Matthew 25:41, it is "the fire (aionian) prepared for the devil and his angels". It does not say that he is cast into anything here, and I think that's an important distinction.

In Matt 25 we are told that the wicked receive the same "everlasting fire" judgment that is currently reserved for the Devil and his angels.

Peter tells us that the Devil is currently roaming about "as a roaring lion" and Rev 12 pronounces woes upon the earth for the devil has come down to you knowing that he has a short time.

James says we should "resist the devil and he will flee from you".

Paul says that "our struggle is not against flesh and blood" etc.

So these NT authors place the devil as an active enemy of the followers of Christ today - rather than his being confined to his final fiery judgment -

But in Rev 20 we DO see him subjected to fiery judgment - for the first time in all of scripture.

One thing that I think you will agree with, is that the gehenna warnings are given to people, based on works. I find that ironic, since we are on opposite sides of the OSAS fence.

Yes I do agree with that. They are judged according to their deeds as we are told in Rev 20 and in 2Cor 5.

Also, you have yet to show me where the Scriptures equate "gehenna" with "lake of fire". You've shown me assumptions.

It depends on the author - if you read Matthew you see "Gehenna" but not "the lake of fire".

If you read John you see "Fire" and "Fire and Brimstone" and "second Death" and "lake of fire" but not Gehenna.

They are all using different terms to talk about the same thing. But I will address your question in detail in a subsequent post.

Also, about the second death: What is the first death?

Rev 20 calls the fire and brimstone judgment "the second death".

In John 11 - Christ completely discounts the first death sufferred by Lazarus as "nothing at all" by comparison to that 2nd death.

In Matt 10:28 you see the two deaths in stark contrast.

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

Christ argues that we should not fear first death scenarios – but rather second death.

By contrast we see those where who would argue

DHK

Man is immortal. He cannot be destroyed

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Andre]

I have given you Scripture in my post above. Why do you ignore it? Start dealing with those ones first.

All right. Let's start with Genesis 2:7

the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being

There is absolutely nothing in this text that suggests that the breath God breathed into the man's body did anything more than to animate that body. There is no reason at all to see this text as suggesting that God "inserted" an immortal consciousness bearing entity into a flesh house. The text works perfectly with the concept of God injecting a "life energy" that is neither consciousness-bearing nor immortal.

Imagine a robot with a computer brain. The robot is basically "dead" until the designer downloads a program into the computer-brain of the robot. The robot then springs to life and begins to interact with its enviornment.

Can the program interact with anything at all in the form of disembodied information? Of course not. The analogy is not ideal but it does make a very powerful case that texts like Genesis 2:7 in no way necessitate the conclusion that God inserted a consciousness-bearing entity that can exist without a host body.

We think the text teaches this because we bring a dualistic conceptualization to it.

 

[DHK]

All right. Let's start with Genesis 2:7

the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being

There is absolutely nothing in this text that suggests that the breath God breathed into the man's body did anything more than to animate that body.

No? Nothing, except that in that very verse God said He did!! Don't you believe the very Scripture that you read? "And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life."
That is a very different expression that is used when describing the creation of animals.

We think the text teaches this because we bring a dualistic conceptualization to it.

I don't think of man as being dualistic; animals yes, man no. Man has a tri-partite nature; perhaps reflecting in part the image of God though not in any way in a physical sense.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
--Man is composed of body, soul, and spirit--all three. This differs from animals which have only body and soul. This is how man and animals differ. Man has a spirit that will live on for all eternity. There won't be animals in heaven for they don't have a spirit.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
--Verse 19 concludes the fourth day, wherein God made the sun, moon and stars. From verse 19 to 25 the account describes how God created all the animals. In verse 20 he speaks of the "moving creatures that hath life.
The word for life is "nephesh." He speaks of the animals that have a soul. It is the same word used throughout the OT translated as soul when referring to man's soul. Animals have a soul. God created the animals with a soul. But he didn't create them with a spirit. Now look at the rest of the Scripture I gave you and you will see that it is the spirit that communicates with God and the spirit that will live on forever. Man is an eternal being. Realize, however, that often the words soul and spirit are used interchangeably.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ps 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

HP: Here is an enlightening verse to me concerning the fate of the ungodly. Notice it is the ‘way’ of the ungodly that in this verse is shown to perish. I can think of no worse torment than to have all sorts of desires yet no ‘way’ to fulfill them. The 'way' to fulfull selfish desire is said to be forever destroyed or perished.

 

[Andre]

No? Nothing, except that in that very verse God said He did!! Don't you believe the very Scripture that you read? "And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.

This is simply a non-argument. You have given the objective reader no reason at all to believe that the "breath of life" from Genesis 2:7 has to take the form of an immortal conscious-bearing entity. I have shown that there is another way to legitimately read this text. You are merely stating your position. I would not expect the reader to accept either of our positions simply on our "say so". Please tell us how the interpretation that I propose is incorrect.

 

[BobRyan]

I would be interested in any evidence at all from the Bible that suggests that man has an immortal spirit and or that there exists a conscious-bearing component of man that can survive apart from a body. Please note that texts that are only consistent with the position that you support and yet are also equally consistent with competing positions.


Show me just one verse, just one.
.

No "immortal spirit" texts in the Bible "no not one"

in Matt 10:27-28 Christ refers to the first death as that which destroys the body but not the soul.

In Eccl 12 we find that the spirit of man "goes back to God who gave it" at death.

So we see in 1Thess 4 and in John 11 that mankind in death is said to "sleep". Existence - but not conscious existence.

Demonstrates the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" Without trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the Person is in fact not dead – as the RC myths would have it.).

1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who (persons) are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

This text is not about “body parts turned to dust” but about PERSONS WHO are grieving about other persons WHO are asleep in death.

Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who (persons) are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".

1Thess 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.>>

John 11:
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT” . Lazarus “the person” IS asleep “HE has fallen asleep” – I go that I may wake “HIM” not merely “his body parts”. And by that Christ means “Lazarus HIMSELF IS dead” – the PERSON is actually dead. Not merely his “body parts” as would be the case of much-needed INSERT into the text “Lazarus is STILL alive but his body parts are dead”

1Cor 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
…
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as We have borne the image of the earthy, We will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.