Matt 18 and Matt 6 Disprove OSAS

[BobRyan]

Apparently OSAS does not survive Matt 18 and Matt 6 -


Originally Posted by BobRyan
Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


There is a long list of other texts that disprove OSAS in the same way - such as those we find in Ezek 18.

 

[DHK]

BTW - you are probably wondering why I keep pointing out that the calling of the Jewish nation failed at some point and is replaced now by spiritual "Israel" as we see above in the case of Romans 2, Romans 9 etc.

in Christ,

Bob
[/SIZE]

This is a false doctrine and one of the reasons you are very confused. There is no "spiritual Israel." There is Israel, the Gentiles, and the church of God. Paul delineates those three groups himself.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

There is no spiritual Israel. Paul was a Christian. See Romans 1:1.
He was not an unsaved Jew. He was not an unsaved Gentile. He was a Christian. Those are the only categories that there are.

 

[BobRyan]

How is it that we are "not supposed to notice" that I often confine my posts primarily to scripture - and you often confine yours to ad hominem comment after ad hominem false accusation "as if" that is the sort of Bible study that a few of your fellow Baptists have come to expect?

By contrast - for those who actually read Romans 2 and Romans 9 and 1 Peter 2 as stated below your hollow assertion that these texts do not exist or that they do not say what they say - falls flat.

As for promises and gifts to literal Israel being irrevocable

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

"Behold your house is left unto you -desolate" Matt 23

Acts 13

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles

[FONT=&quot]
Romans 2.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Romans 11
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ex 19[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself. 5 Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Rev 1
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For this is contained in Scripture:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone,
And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
“The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the very corner stone,”

8 and,
“A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”;
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.[/FONT]



Turns out... I do know that. I also know that "all scripture is given by inspiration from God and is profitable for correction, instruction, reproof..." and that the NT writers were writing scripture by divine inspiration.

I thought we were all on the same page there.

Are you saying that this "too" is being called into question??

BTW - you are probably wondering why I keep pointing out that the calling of the Jewish nation failed at some point and is replaced now by spiritual "Israel" as we see above in the case of Romans 2, Romans 9 etc.

 

[prophet]

This is a false doctrine and one of the reasons you are very confused. There is no "spiritual Israel." There is Israel, the Gentiles, and the church of God. Paul delineates those three groups himself.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

There is no spiritual Israel. Paul was a Christian. See Romans 1:1.
He was not an unsaved Jew. He was not an unsaved Gentile. He was a Christian. Those are the only categories that there are.

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female:for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(KJV)

We are spiritually Abraham's seed.

Call it what you will, this passage calls you wrong.

Notice that 'Jew' is included in groups that lose their singular identity "in Christ". There are no divisions to those who :
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
By faith, come in Christ .

Are we physically no longer male and female? Check next time you shower. We are ...watch this...'Spiritually no longer male and female'.
'Spritual' is another name for 'positional', because our bodies dwell on a physical earth, and simultaneously we are 'seated in heavenly places', positionally. Spiritually.
The spirit dwells in Eternity, the flesh in Time.

 

[DHK]

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female:for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(KJV)

We are spiritually Abraham's seed.

Call it what you will, this passage calls you wrong.

Notice that 'Jew' is included in groups that lose their singular identity "in Christ". There are no divisions to those who :
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
By faith, come in Christ .

Are we physically no longer male and female? Check next time you shower. We are ...watch this...'Spiritually no longer male and female'.
'Spritual' is another name for 'positional', because our bodies dwell on a physical earth, and simultaneously we are 'seated in heavenly places', positionally. Spiritually.
The spirit dwells in Eternity, the flesh in Time.

No, it doesn't say I am wrong.
The Muslim that comes to Christ is no longer a Muslim. He is not a "Muslim-Christian." He gives up his Islam and becomes a Christian. So does the "Greek" meaning pagan or Gentile, and so does the Jew (meaning Jewish religion). Christians are not schizophrenics. They cannot hold two religions at once. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me." Either you believe that or you call Jesus a liar, fake and imposter. Which is it?

The Scripture you referenced is speaking of how all who come to Christ (Jew, Gentile, and even Muslim) after they become saved, are all one in Christ. There is no difference between any of us. We are one in Christ. There is no "spiritual Israel."
Check out Romans 9:1-3, and likewise Romans 10:1-3. Why does Paul, a saved Israelite pay for his "brethren" his "kinsmen in the flesh," the nation of Israel? Because they are not saved? The nation of Israel still existed at the time of Paul, and he lifted them up to the Lord in prayer. Likewise they still exist now. Things have not changed.

 

[prophet]

No, it doesn't say I am wrong.
The Muslim that comes to Christ is no longer a Muslim. He is not a "Muslim-Christian." He gives up his Islam and becomes a Christian. So does the "Greek" meaning pagan or Gentile, and so does the Jew (meaning Jewish religion). Christians are not schizophrenics. They cannot hold two religions at once. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me." Either you believe that or you call Jesus a liar, fake and imposter. Which is it?

The Scripture you referenced is speaking of how all who come to Christ (Jew, Gentile, and even Muslim) after they become saved, are all one in Christ. There is no difference between any of us. We are one in Christ. There is no "spiritual Israel."
Check out Romans 9:1-3, and likewise Romans 10:1-3. Why does Paul, a saved Israelite pay for his "brethren" his "kinsmen in the flesh," the nation of Israel? Because they are not saved? The nation of Israel still existed at the time of Paul, and he lifted them up to the Lord in prayer. Likewise they still exist now. Things have not changed.

Nice duck, now explain how we are no longer male or female, using the same argument...

 

[DHK]

Nice duck, now explain how we are no longer male or female, using the same argument...

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We know no man after the flesh: rich man, poor man; Jew or Gentile; male or female; banker or pauper; fat or skinny; etc. We know no man after the flesh. It doesn't matter what your background is or was. Ethnicity, gender, past religion, caste, social status, are all in the past. We are all one in Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature. All those old things (the old man) is passed away. All things are become new. We have a new life in Christ. All are equal; all are one in Christ.

The problem in the Corinthian church was divisiveness. Paul was addressing that problem. There was to be no divisions. They were one body united by one Person, the Lord.

 

[prophet]

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We know no man after the flesh: rich man, poor man; Jew or Gentile; male or female; banker or pauper; fat or skinny; etc. We know no man after the flesh. It doesn't matter what your background is or was. Ethnicity, gender, past religion, caste, social status, are all in the past. We are all one in Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature. All those old things (the old man) is passed away. All things are become new. We have a new life in Christ. All are equal; all are one in Christ.

The problem in the Corinthian church was divisiveness. Paul was addressing that problem. There was to be no divisions. They were one body united by one Person, the Lord.

In Christ...Abraham's Seed. Now we are getting somewhere.
Israelites that are unbelievers, go to Hell. They are of their father, the Dévil. Israelites that believe, it is accounted unto them for righteousness, they become Abraham's Seed, spiritually.
Rom 10:12
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 11:24
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree:how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

See? They that believe , of physical Isr., must be "grafted in" to espiritual Isr.

 

[DHK]

In Christ...Abraham's Seed. Now we are getting somewhere.
Israelites that are unbelievers, go to Hell. They are of their father, the Dévil. Israelites that believe, it is accounted unto them for righteousness, they become Abraham's Seed, spiritually.
Rom 10:12
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 11:24
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree:how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

See? They that believe , of physical Isr., must be "grafted in" to espiritual Isr.

Israel is blinded. She has been set aside for a season. God is not dealing with Israel any longer at this time, but will in the future. An Israelite must come to Christ the same way that a Muslim, Hindu or any other person comes to Christ. There is no "spiritual Israel."

 

[prophet]

Israel is blinded. She has been set aside for a season. God is not dealing with Israel any longer at this time, but will in the future. An Israelite must come to Christ the same way that a Muslim, Hindu or any other person comes to Christ. There is no "spiritual Israel."

Call it Israel, call it "Abraham's seed", you are arguing against a nickname, not a false doctrine.

 

[DHK]

Call it Israel, call it "Abraham's seed", you are arguing against a nickname, not a false doctrine.

Israel is Abraham's seed, physically. We are not. As with any of the OT saints, we have in common the "faith of Abraham." That would hold true with any of the saints mentioned in Hebrews 11. Faith did not originate with Abraham. He is not our father. We are all of the seed of Adam. Those that are saved are of Christ.
Here is the way that Paul put it elsewhere:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
In Adam all die. All means all.
In Christ all will be made alive. Context dictates that all who believe in Christ will be made alive. The context is the resurrection. Adam is our federal head. The federal head of believers is Christ. We have nothing to do with Israel. It is Adam; the first Adam, and Christ; the second Adam.

 

[prophet]

Israel is Abraham's seed, physically. We are not. As with any of the OT saints, we have in common the "faith of Abraham." That would hold true with any of the saints mentioned in Hebrews 11. Faith did not originate with Abraham. He is not our father. We are all of the seed of Adam. Those that are saved are of Christ.
Here is the way that Paul put it elsewhere:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
In Adam all die. All means all.
In Christ all will be made alive. Context dictates that all who believe in Christ will be made alive. The context is the resurrection. Adam is our federal head. The federal head of believers is Christ. We have nothing to do with Israel. It is Adam; the first Adam, and Christ; the second Adam.

Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Speak for yourself.

 

[DHK]

Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Speak for yourself.

I don't speak for myself; I let the Lord speak for me.
Why not quote the verse in context?

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.

The teaching is simply that we are one in Christ. He is using "Abraham seed" as a metaphor to teach of the faith of Abraham. In no way are we the physical seed of Abraham. That is not what the verse teaches. He, in the very same breath, and verse, says "heirs according to the promise.
What does that mean? To Abraham was given a promise; a promise that God would make him a blessing, and through him he would be a blessing to all nations. You have been blessed because of Abraham. You are heirs of the promise of Abraham. You are not his seed, per se. You, because of his faith and faithfulness, inherit his blessing.